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The comments on the sidebar are interesting - lots of Europeans commenting on salary and tax burden vs. cost of education, retirement and healthcare. I grew up

The comments on the sidebar are interesting - lots of Europeans commenting on salary and tax burden vs. cost of education, retirement and healthcare. I grew up in Germany, enjoyed a free engineering education but moved to US after graduation. My single anecdotal data point seems to agree with a lot of the US commenters on this post: if you're educated and work for a reputable company you're pretty well off in the US. As the situation becomes worse for blue collar and untrained labor workforce it's clear that it's coming at their expense. Wealth inequality in the US is a huge issue and needs to be addressed.

dantheman 4y ago
The average work in the US has far more purchasing power than german worker. The problem in the US is: housing, education, and medicine - three areas where the government has strongly distorted the market and driven up cost.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  That implies the average US worker can afford more despite lower median wage (before the US dollar took off, anyway). >housing Housing is nowhere near a problem compared to most of Western Europe. Americans live huge and house prices are still low relative to CoL. Unless your measuring standard is a megapolis in, you know, the most desired place in the world.
  - tomcam 4y ago
    > you know, the most desired place in the world. Paris says thanks for the compliment ;)
- geraneum 4y ago
  > The problem in the US is: housing, education, and medicine Honestly I'm confused; These are very crucial, these are basic, and if they are out of reach for an average worker, does the higher purchasing power (assuming it's actually higher in US) even matter that much without them?
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    Medical expenses was (is?) the leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the US. Housing is a mixed bag. Some areas are cheap. Some are extremely expensive (all the big west coast cities included). You can find a balance in some second or third tier cities. Education is a racket. This is a relatively new problem. Costs outpace inflation and wage growth by a massive margin. If I was in my twenties, and looking to start a family, I’d seriously consider renewing my UK passport or getting and IE passport (via parents) and moving to Europe.
- zwieback 4y ago
  And I'd say healthcare is the biggest problem. The average price per square foot of housing hasn't gone up as much as people think. The problem is that people want to live in a big house in a specific place. Education is expensive but if you go to community college for two years then a decent state school you can come out without crushing debt, which you can pay off if you study something marketable. Healthcare, on the other hand, is out of control. I'm nearing the end of my career and am well-off but have to assume that getting sick could wipe out our savings.
  - zeroonetwothree 4y ago
    How can this be true? ACA guarantees coverage with a maximum annual out-of-pocket cost of ~$9k individual/$18k family.
  - Rebelgecko 4y ago
    Are you uninsured?
    - zwieback 4y ago
      No, I have insurance but the cost of old age can still be really steep.
- usednet 4y ago
  Except for housing, the governments failure to intervene in these distorted markets is the problem - not the government itself distorting the markets. Even for housing, there are plenty of high level policies that could be implemented regarding zoning, tax assessment, etc. that would ameliorate the issue.
darth_avocado 4y ago
Yea in absolute terms, you are doing well. However, when you account for everything, the salaries don’t look as ridiculous as it sounds. If you earn 450k for example working for Netflix in Los Gatos, CA (the salaries are geo adjusted so you’re not getting paid like that anywhere), you are essentially making 260k after taxes. Still a great salary. Netflix is not remote first, so having to buy a house in a reasonable commutable distance is going to cost you around 2-2.3M, which a 30 year mortgage with 20% down is still going to cost you around 13k/month (with taxes and insurance) or $156k/year. Still a lot of money left every year. ~100k. But once you start adding other costs, you realize, it’s just a upper middle class lifestyle in these expensive areas. The only time it helps is when you go elsewhere or leave your job and move out. Obviously no doubt that’s awesome, but majority of the time you’re living there, you are spending a significant amount of that salary and the govt takes half of it.
- zwieback 4y ago
  Very true, we've lived in Oregon for 30 years but all my inlaws lived in the Bay Area the whole time. Now that they are ready to cash and move out their property values are a great asset but it's also very painful to pull up your roots at that age.
- cjrp 4y ago
  But that money you’re putting towards the mortgage belongs to future-you (minus interest, and assuming property prices at least stay the same). It’s a savings account.
  - zeroonetwothree 4y ago
    To get the money back you have to sell your property, and then where are you going to live? Sure it's great if you want to then move to a cheap area, but what if you want to stay near your friends & family? (Yes, there are some alternatives like HELOC or reverse mortgage, but I don't think they are generally that great except for very specific situations)
  - darth_avocado 4y ago
    Sounds easy, in practice it’s much harder. Spend years building a life making money, have your entire social circle and your kids’ lives somewhere. You don’t just leave. Why do most of our parents still live in the same place or move to near where their kids live (also other HCOL areas)?
danielvaughn 4y ago
I'd need to see quite a bit of evidence to support the idea that high STEM salaries are at the expense of the blue collar workforce. Unless you mean the specific industries that are moving money from traditional sources and funneling it into tech companies, in which case it's intuitively true. But I worked blue collar for the first 20 or so years of my career, and salaries were under the floor long before tech really started taking off.
usabro123 4y ago
> I grew up in Germany, enjoyed a free engineering education but moved to US after graduation The idea that you can get the education in X but not pay the dividends for it there, instead getting paid much better in Y, wasn't really your point. But there are limitations to giving your life to everyone too. Germany can't educate free workers for the US forever. That said I don't think there is a competitive election anywhere where voters decide benefits based on an ROI. It's not about the ROI. Singapore by comparison requires you to come back and work if the S. government pays for your foreign education. You can ask Singaporeans how they feel about that. Even though, on the face of it, like a lot of things in kind of fascist Singapore, it "makes sense." > the situation becomes worse for blue collar and untrained labor workforce it's clear that it's coming at their expense... Wealth inequality in the US is a huge issue and needs to be addressed. The most interesting thing about wealth inequality is, whom do you include in your denominator? First in a whole economy perspective: Do I include the people in China who manufacture my shit cheaply? That reduces cost for me, giving me real wealth, in exchange for paying them less. Common sense. [1] Both US political parties had, at alternating and even sometimes coinciding times, thought wealth inequality was related to immigration policy: that people from Latin American countries would come and work below cost in exchange for their kids being able to grow up in America. [2] [3] Same common sense energy. Has wealth inequality gotten worse, or are we just measuring it better? Are there things that force it to be measured better? Germany has the same forces at play, it's the reunification economy. [4] [1] In 1995, "Estimates by Oxford Economics show that workers in China’s manufacturing sector received an average wage of 40 cents per hour in 1995, equivalent to just 2% of the average hourly rate of US$17 paid across the G7... If common prosperity leads to centrally-mandated increases in wage growth that far exceed productivity, then it could spell trouble [like inflation]. " https://www.schroders.com/en/us/insights/economic-views/is-china-about-to-become-a-source-of-global-inflation/ https://www.schroders.com/en/us/insights/economic-views/is-c... [2] Bernie Sanders: "I’m paying you [an illegal immigrant] $5 an hour, O.K.? You don’t think that’s going to lower the wages that [an American] gets?... I think that’s kind of common sense. It’s called a race to the bottom." https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/01/13/opinion/bernie-sanders-nytimes-interview.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/01/13/opinion/berni... [3] George W. Bush: "Americans don't want to pick cotton at 105º, but there are people who want to put food on their family’s tables and are willing to do that" https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/372882-george-w-bush-on-immigrants-we-ought-to-say-thank-you-and-welcome/ https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/372882-george-w... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_the_German_reunification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_the_German...
godelski 4y ago
Yeah I think Europeans are comparing situations for average US workers to those of tech workers, who definitely aren't average. With a country with such large wealth divide the situations don't compare. For anyone in the top 10% (which tech workers are) you'll have far more disposable income than your European counterparts[0]. You'll have good health care that won't cost you much. You'll have access to good schools. You'll live in very safe neighborhoods. Comparing these two classes of people is apples to oranges. Both roundish fruits but there's nuance that matters and if you bite into an orange thinking it is an apple you'll get a big surprise. Wealth inequality is definitely a problem in America but it also needs to be considered in the argument because it is a problem. There are some factors that I think do matter. College education matters but we need to consider decades worth of these salary differences, which likely make up for the cost of education by a lot (an expensive private school will cost $120k total and you're making that difference in a few years). But there are also personal preferences and those matter. Europe is far more dense and you can have access to a wide breadth of cultures relatively easily. Things like this can have a high value to people. Or maybe the high value is that your neighbors get subsidized college too? Potentially that's what people are saying but not conveying well. Still, I don't think the equation is quite simple, but it does seem like Europeans deserve a bit more in salaries. [0] https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1570832839318605824 https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1570832839318605824

dantheman 4y ago

The average work in the US has far more purchasing power than german worker. The problem in the US is: housing, education, and medicine - three areas where the government has strongly distorted the market and driven up cost.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
That implies the average US worker can afford more despite lower median wage (before the US dollar took off, anyway). >housing Housing is nowhere near a problem compared to most of Western Europe. Americans live huge and house prices are still low relative to CoL. Unless your measuring standard is a megapolis in, you know, the most desired place in the world.
- tomcam 4y ago
  > you know, the most desired place in the world. Paris says thanks for the compliment ;)
geraneum 4y ago
> The problem in the US is: housing, education, and medicine Honestly I'm confused; These are very crucial, these are basic, and if they are out of reach for an average worker, does the higher purchasing power (assuming it's actually higher in US) even matter that much without them?
- alistairSH 4y ago
  Medical expenses was (is?) the leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the US. Housing is a mixed bag. Some areas are cheap. Some are extremely expensive (all the big west coast cities included). You can find a balance in some second or third tier cities. Education is a racket. This is a relatively new problem. Costs outpace inflation and wage growth by a massive margin. If I was in my twenties, and looking to start a family, I’d seriously consider renewing my UK passport or getting and IE passport (via parents) and moving to Europe.
zwieback 4y ago
And I'd say healthcare is the biggest problem. The average price per square foot of housing hasn't gone up as much as people think. The problem is that people want to live in a big house in a specific place. Education is expensive but if you go to community college for two years then a decent state school you can come out without crushing debt, which you can pay off if you study something marketable. Healthcare, on the other hand, is out of control. I'm nearing the end of my career and am well-off but have to assume that getting sick could wipe out our savings.
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  How can this be true? ACA guarantees coverage with a maximum annual out-of-pocket cost of ~$9k individual/$18k family.
- Rebelgecko 4y ago
  Are you uninsured?
  - zwieback 4y ago
    No, I have insurance but the cost of old age can still be really steep.
usednet 4y ago
Except for housing, the governments failure to intervene in these distorted markets is the problem - not the government itself distorting the markets. Even for housing, there are plenty of high level policies that could be implemented regarding zoning, tax assessment, etc. that would ameliorate the issue.

darth_avocado 4y ago

Yea in absolute terms, you are doing well. However, when you account for everything, the salaries don’t look as ridiculous as it sounds. If you earn 450k for example working for Netflix in Los Gatos, CA (the salaries are geo adjusted so you’re not getting paid like that anywhere), you are essentially making 260k after taxes. Still a great salary. Netflix is not remote first, so having to buy a house in a reasonable commutable distance is going to cost you around 2-2.3M, which a 30 year mortgage with 20% down is still going to cost you around 13k/month (with taxes and insurance) or $156k/year. Still a lot of money left every year. ~100k. But once you start adding other costs, you realize, it’s just a upper middle class lifestyle in these expensive areas. The only time it helps is when you go elsewhere or leave your job and move out. Obviously no doubt that’s awesome, but majority of the time you’re living there, you are spending a significant amount of that salary and the govt takes half of it.

zwieback 4y ago
Very true, we've lived in Oregon for 30 years but all my inlaws lived in the Bay Area the whole time. Now that they are ready to cash and move out their property values are a great asset but it's also very painful to pull up your roots at that age.
cjrp 4y ago
But that money you’re putting towards the mortgage belongs to future-you (minus interest, and assuming property prices at least stay the same). It’s a savings account.
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  To get the money back you have to sell your property, and then where are you going to live? Sure it's great if you want to then move to a cheap area, but what if you want to stay near your friends & family? (Yes, there are some alternatives like HELOC or reverse mortgage, but I don't think they are generally that great except for very specific situations)
- darth_avocado 4y ago
  Sounds easy, in practice it’s much harder. Spend years building a life making money, have your entire social circle and your kids’ lives somewhere. You don’t just leave. Why do most of our parents still live in the same place or move to near where their kids live (also other HCOL areas)?

danielvaughn 4y ago

I'd need to see quite a bit of evidence to support the idea that high STEM salaries are at the expense of the blue collar workforce. Unless you mean the specific industries that are moving money from traditional sources and funneling it into tech companies, in which case it's intuitively true. But I worked blue collar for the first 20 or so years of my career, and salaries were under the floor long before tech really started taking off.

usabro123 4y ago

> I grew up in Germany, enjoyed a free engineering education but moved to US after graduation The idea that you can get the education in X but not pay the dividends for it there, instead getting paid much better in Y, wasn't really your point. But there are limitations to giving your life to everyone too. Germany can't educate free workers for the US forever. That said I don't think there is a competitive election anywhere where voters decide benefits based on an ROI. It's not about the ROI. Singapore by comparison requires you to come back and work if the S. government pays for your foreign education. You can ask Singaporeans how they feel about that. Even though, on the face of it, like a lot of things in kind of fascist Singapore, it "makes sense." > the situation becomes worse for blue collar and untrained labor workforce it's clear that it's coming at their expense... Wealth inequality in the US is a huge issue and needs to be addressed. The most interesting thing about wealth inequality is, whom do you include in your denominator? First in a whole economy perspective: Do I include the people in China who manufacture my shit cheaply? That reduces cost for me, giving me real wealth, in exchange for paying them less. Common sense. [1] Both US political parties had, at alternating and even sometimes coinciding times, thought wealth inequality was related to immigration policy: that people from Latin American countries would come and work below cost in exchange for their kids being able to grow up in America. [2] [3] Same common sense energy. Has wealth inequality gotten worse, or are we just measuring it better? Are there things that force it to be measured better? Germany has the same forces at play, it's the reunification economy. [4] [1] In 1995, "Estimates by Oxford Economics show that workers in China’s manufacturing sector received an average wage of 40 cents per hour in 1995, equivalent to just 2% of the average hourly rate of US$17 paid across the G7... If common prosperity leads to centrally-mandated increases in wage growth that far exceed productivity, then it could spell trouble [like inflation]. " https://www.schroders.com/en/us/insights/economic-views/is-china-about-to-become-a-source-of-global-inflation/ https://www.schroders.com/en/us/insights/economic-views/is-c... [2] Bernie Sanders: "I’m paying you [an illegal immigrant] $5 an hour, O.K.? You don’t think that’s going to lower the wages that [an American] gets?... I think that’s kind of common sense. It’s called a race to the bottom." https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/01/13/opinion/bernie-sanders-nytimes-interview.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/01/13/opinion/berni... [3] George W. Bush: "Americans don't want to pick cotton at 105º, but there are people who want to put food on their family’s tables and are willing to do that" https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/372882-george-w-bush-on-immigrants-we-ought-to-say-thank-you-and-welcome/ https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/372882-george-w... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_the_German_reunification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_the_German...

godelski 4y ago

Yeah I think Europeans are comparing situations for average US workers to those of tech workers, who definitely aren't average. With a country with such large wealth divide the situations don't compare. For anyone in the top 10% (which tech workers are) you'll have far more disposable income than your European counterparts[0]. You'll have good health care that won't cost you much. You'll have access to good schools. You'll live in very safe neighborhoods. Comparing these two classes of people is apples to oranges. Both roundish fruits but there's nuance that matters and if you bite into an orange thinking it is an apple you'll get a big surprise. Wealth inequality is definitely a problem in America but it also needs to be considered in the argument because it is a problem. There are some factors that I think do matter. College education matters but we need to consider decades worth of these salary differences, which likely make up for the cost of education by a lot (an expensive private school will cost $120k total and you're making that difference in a few years). But there are also personal preferences and those matter. Europe is far more dense and you can have access to a wide breadth of cultures relatively easily. Things like this can have a high value to people. Or maybe the high value is that your neighbors get subsidized college too? Potentially that's what people are saying but not conveying well. Still, I don't think the equation is quite simple, but it does seem like Europeans deserve a bit more in salaries. [0] https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1570832839318605824 https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1570832839318605824