7 ms·

America’s Throwaway Spies: How the CIA Failed Iranian Informants

77 points by cpeterso 4y ago

bpanon 4y ago
They deserve it if they believed the CIA would help them. Not smart.
- petre 4y ago
  The second guy was clearly not smart having walked into an US consulate to collaborate with the CIA. Maybe he was very pissed off or has seen stuff he strongly disagreed with in his line of work.
guilhas 4y ago
The story here is USA constantly meddling around the world, while claiming to be the victim of unacceptable meddling. Abandoning diplomacy and international agreed nuclear agreement, in favor of spy and sabotage, planting the seeds for the next "revolution"
daniel-cussen 4y ago
[flagged]
joshxyz 4y ago
Damn this is sad to read, lots of wasted assets.
james-redwood 4y ago
This made me sick to my stomach. Absolutely revolting behaviour by the CIA against extraordinarily brave Iranians who risked their lives and even did prison time to help.
- Overtonwindow 4y ago
  If you think that’s bad, you should read up on what the author Tim Weiner did. He outed a CIA informant in the newspaper because he could, which directly led to the man’s death. Timothy Weiner has blood on his hands. Source: https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revisionist-history/the-road-to-damascus https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revisionist-history/the-road...
  - boomboomsubban 4y ago
    "If you think CIA incompetence leading to hundreds of informants being burned is bad, wait til you hear about a journalist publishing a story that maybe burned one informant for what they consider a good reason."
  - macinjosh 4y ago
    Journalists have a duty to report information. Spies chose their profession and must live with the risks. It is not complicated.
    - h2odragon 4y ago
      The difference between a journalist and a spy, then, is the size of their audience?
      - MerelyMortal 4y ago
        And their employeer. It seems that journalists also cultivate sources and use some spycraft in communications. One does so for their government/country, the other for their newspaper.
        jhbadger 4y ago
        John le Carré (the late novelist who was a British intelligence officer in the 1960s) was once asked why states have intelligence agencies when investigative journalists often do the same sorts of things and often report the same information spies do, and he responded that while this is often the case, the problem is that governments tend not to listen to journalists.
    - smcl 4y ago
      That's wrong. Most journalists recognise that when there's a risk of causing someone's death if they release certain details, they have to consider whether or not it's responsible to do so. So while they do exist to sell newspapers (or, more likely, get clicks for online ads) the majority of journalists and orgs aren't quite heartless enough to literally name an informant knowing it'd cause them to be exposed and killed.
- lm28469 4y ago
  It's the same thing every single time: https://www.wsj.com/articles/left-behind-after-u-s-withdrawal-some-former-afghan-spies-and-soldiers-turn-to-islamic-state-11635691605 https://www.wsj.com/articles/left-behind-after-u-s-withdrawa...
charlieo88 4y ago
Sun Tzu's Art of War divides spies into five categories: Local spies; inward spies; converted spies; doomed spies; surviving spies. These people seem to be in the doomed spies category. "Having doomed spies, doing certain things openly for purposes of deception, and allowing our spies to know of them and report them to the enemy."
ch4s3 4y ago
The CIA continues to cover itself in shit and serve as a national embarrassment. The time has long since passed that we need to unravel this mess. From botched coups, to exploding cigars, torture chambers, and burned informants the CIA seems only capable of pissing away money and making us look terrible internationally.
- petre 4y ago
  Maybe the renewed cold war will prompt the CIA to get their shit together. The Russians have been actively sabotaging things in the EU through useful idiots and corrupt politicians. One person who was able to sucessfully trick them so far is Marine LePen, who gladly takes their money while she keeps losing elections.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  And in what circumstances would you hear about their successes?
  - poopnugget 4y ago
  - saiya-jin 4y ago
    World peace? Enemies forced to cooperate? Wars won? I mean the list would be almost endless. Just like the list of their proved fuckups and outright careless evil done because 'we can' and 'who is gonna stop us'
    - ch4s3 4y ago
      Which wars did the CIA help to win?
    - ailef 4y ago
      > World peace? Please tell me which world are you living in. I'd like to move there.
  - deleted 4y ago
ThaDood 4y ago
Serious question - given its track record, why would anyone trust the CIA at this point? The promise of something better? Blackmail?
- ubermonkey 4y ago
  There is no good reason to trust it.
- from 4y ago
  People will literally give up their entire life savings in order to have someone guide them across miles of desert in 100 degree weather for just the chance to get into this country. Others are paid money, blackmailed, or they have ideological reasons.
lkrubner 4y ago
Something I wrote before: "One of the interesting things about Sarah Chayes book is her description of the relationship between the CIA and the military. In her view, the military was relatively powerless, and lacked the ability to fight back against the CIA. Meanwhile, the CIA undermined the goals of the military in Afghanistan, especially when it came to fighting corruption." https://demodexio.substack.com/p/thieves-of-state-part-4-of-9 https://demodexio.substack.com/p/thieves-of-state-part-4-of-... Thieves of State Why Corruption Threatens Global Security By Sarah Chayes, 2015 Page 50–52
FridayoLeary 4y ago
The united states has a long history of abandoning allies on all levels, from states to spies and nation. Both foreign and domestic (FBI informants). It's incredibly irresponsible as it destroys trust and can reverse years of work (see: Afghanistan, Iraq, Kurdistan etc etc.) It looks like its institutional.
jason-phillips 4y ago
I think this article shows a poor understanding of how the CIA works, or how this business works in general. The narrative presented in the piece seems to assert that the CIA has some duty and responsibility to provide for its informants and their families. This is a misunderstanding of the situation and therefore the premise of this entire article is very tenuous and not worth much, in my estimation. The truth is that CIA agents' job is to turn individuals who can provide something of value to the CIA. They use various methods to turn these resources, primarily relying on human weakness that can be exploited. That resource is then cultivated for the value it provides. That's it. The handler's job is to gain access, whether that be to information or other resources, through the resource. The handler's job is not to provide for the well-being of the resource or their family afterwards, that simply isn't how it works. That isn't how the US government works anywhere, based on my experience. [[ETA, except the VA, we do this for veterans]] These people have a job to do, a mission, and that's what they're doing. That mission may not be palatable to you, but that is exactly what is going on here. This article, suggesting there is some duty to provide for resources after they've helped the CIA isn't how it works, at all. Any assertions or conjecture to the contrary displays a rather large lack of understanding about how work is prosecuted at the federal level, whether that be in the CIA or not.
- dqpb 4y ago
  You could make this argument about any relationship. After all, look at everyone who just got burned by Google Stadia. Everything is a negotiation. Every relationship has the potential for Pareto efficiency. Most aren't Pareto efficient because of information asymmetry, desperation, lack of competence or experience, etc.
- bhk 4y ago
  You are correct, but at the same time your response shows a poor understanding of politics. A "rather large lack of understanding" of the CIA on the part of the American public is exactly why the CIA is allowed to do what they do. For that reason, this lack of understanding is cultivated by the media and government.
  - 4y ago

77 points by cpeterso 4y ago

bpanon 4y ago

They deserve it if they believed the CIA would help them. Not smart.

petre 4y ago
The second guy was clearly not smart having walked into an US consulate to collaborate with the CIA. Maybe he was very pissed off or has seen stuff he strongly disagreed with in his line of work.

guilhas 4y ago

The story here is USA constantly meddling around the world, while claiming to be the victim of unacceptable meddling. Abandoning diplomacy and international agreed nuclear agreement, in favor of spy and sabotage, planting the seeds for the next "revolution"

daniel-cussen 4y ago

[flagged]

joshxyz 4y ago

Damn this is sad to read, lots of wasted assets.

james-redwood 4y ago

This made me sick to my stomach. Absolutely revolting behaviour by the CIA against extraordinarily brave Iranians who risked their lives and even did prison time to help.

Overtonwindow 4y ago
If you think that’s bad, you should read up on what the author Tim Weiner did. He outed a CIA informant in the newspaper because he could, which directly led to the man’s death. Timothy Weiner has blood on his hands. Source: https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revisionist-history/the-road-to-damascus https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revisionist-history/the-road...
- boomboomsubban 4y ago
  "If you think CIA incompetence leading to hundreds of informants being burned is bad, wait til you hear about a journalist publishing a story that maybe burned one informant for what they consider a good reason."
- macinjosh 4y ago
  Journalists have a duty to report information. Spies chose their profession and must live with the risks. It is not complicated.
  - h2odragon 4y ago
    The difference between a journalist and a spy, then, is the size of their audience?
    - MerelyMortal 4y ago
      And their employeer. It seems that journalists also cultivate sources and use some spycraft in communications. One does so for their government/country, the other for their newspaper.
      - jhbadger 4y ago
        John le Carré (the late novelist who was a British intelligence officer in the 1960s) was once asked why states have intelligence agencies when investigative journalists often do the same sorts of things and often report the same information spies do, and he responded that while this is often the case, the problem is that governments tend not to listen to journalists.
  - smcl 4y ago
    That's wrong. Most journalists recognise that when there's a risk of causing someone's death if they release certain details, they have to consider whether or not it's responsible to do so. So while they do exist to sell newspapers (or, more likely, get clicks for online ads) the majority of journalists and orgs aren't quite heartless enough to literally name an informant knowing it'd cause them to be exposed and killed.
lm28469 4y ago
It's the same thing every single time: https://www.wsj.com/articles/left-behind-after-u-s-withdrawal-some-former-afghan-spies-and-soldiers-turn-to-islamic-state-11635691605 https://www.wsj.com/articles/left-behind-after-u-s-withdrawa...

charlieo88 4y ago

Sun Tzu's Art of War divides spies into five categories: Local spies; inward spies; converted spies; doomed spies; surviving spies. These people seem to be in the doomed spies category. "Having doomed spies, doing certain things openly for purposes of deception, and allowing our spies to know of them and report them to the enemy."

ch4s3 4y ago

The CIA continues to cover itself in shit and serve as a national embarrassment. The time has long since passed that we need to unravel this mess. From botched coups, to exploding cigars, torture chambers, and burned informants the CIA seems only capable of pissing away money and making us look terrible internationally.

petre 4y ago
Maybe the renewed cold war will prompt the CIA to get their shit together. The Russians have been actively sabotaging things in the EU through useful idiots and corrupt politicians. One person who was able to sucessfully trick them so far is Marine LePen, who gladly takes their money while she keeps losing elections.
colechristensen 4y ago
And in what circumstances would you hear about their successes?
- poopnugget 4y ago
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  World peace? Enemies forced to cooperate? Wars won? I mean the list would be almost endless. Just like the list of their proved fuckups and outright careless evil done because 'we can' and 'who is gonna stop us'
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    Which wars did the CIA help to win?
  - ailef 4y ago
    > World peace? Please tell me which world are you living in. I'd like to move there.
- deleted 4y ago

ThaDood 4y ago

Serious question - given its track record, why would anyone trust the CIA at this point? The promise of something better? Blackmail?

ubermonkey 4y ago
There is no good reason to trust it.
from 4y ago
People will literally give up their entire life savings in order to have someone guide them across miles of desert in 100 degree weather for just the chance to get into this country. Others are paid money, blackmailed, or they have ideological reasons.

lkrubner 4y ago

Something I wrote before: "One of the interesting things about Sarah Chayes book is her description of the relationship between the CIA and the military. In her view, the military was relatively powerless, and lacked the ability to fight back against the CIA. Meanwhile, the CIA undermined the goals of the military in Afghanistan, especially when it came to fighting corruption." https://demodexio.substack.com/p/thieves-of-state-part-4-of-9 https://demodexio.substack.com/p/thieves-of-state-part-4-of-... Thieves of State Why Corruption Threatens Global Security By Sarah Chayes, 2015 Page 50–52

FridayoLeary 4y ago

The united states has a long history of abandoning allies on all levels, from states to spies and nation. Both foreign and domestic (FBI informants). It's incredibly irresponsible as it destroys trust and can reverse years of work (see: Afghanistan, Iraq, Kurdistan etc etc.) It looks like its institutional.

jason-phillips 4y ago

I think this article shows a poor understanding of how the CIA works, or how this business works in general. The narrative presented in the piece seems to assert that the CIA has some duty and responsibility to provide for its informants and their families. This is a misunderstanding of the situation and therefore the premise of this entire article is very tenuous and not worth much, in my estimation. The truth is that CIA agents' job is to turn individuals who can provide something of value to the CIA. They use various methods to turn these resources, primarily relying on human weakness that can be exploited. That resource is then cultivated for the value it provides. That's it. The handler's job is to gain access, whether that be to information or other resources, through the resource. The handler's job is not to provide for the well-being of the resource or their family afterwards, that simply isn't how it works. That isn't how the US government works anywhere, based on my experience. [[ETA, except the VA, we do this for veterans]] These people have a job to do, a mission, and that's what they're doing. That mission may not be palatable to you, but that is exactly what is going on here. This article, suggesting there is some duty to provide for resources after they've helped the CIA isn't how it works, at all. Any assertions or conjecture to the contrary displays a rather large lack of understanding about how work is prosecuted at the federal level, whether that be in the CIA or not.

dqpb 4y ago
You could make this argument about any relationship. After all, look at everyone who just got burned by Google Stadia. Everything is a negotiation. Every relationship has the potential for Pareto efficiency. Most aren't Pareto efficient because of information asymmetry, desperation, lack of competence or experience, etc.
bhk 4y ago
You are correct, but at the same time your response shows a poor understanding of politics. A "rather large lack of understanding" of the CIA on the part of the American public is exactly why the CIA is allowed to do what they do. For that reason, this lack of understanding is cultivated by the media and government.
- 4y ago