5 ms·

Alternative opinion here, 30 years ago games/software were much simpler. I assume we did not have conglomerates like Rockstar and EA who pushed their employees

Alternative opinion here, 30 years ago games/software were much simpler. I assume we did not have conglomerates like Rockstar and EA who pushed their employees beyond their limits. Game industry is notoriously known for exploiting programmers. Imagine being a SWE working 12+ hours a day 6 days a week getting no rest. I might have accidentally coded something like this so that I could go home a couple of hours earlier.

eru 4y ago
> Game industry is notoriously known for exploiting programmers. I'd be wary with these kinds of words. The thing is that people seem really, really eager to work in the video games industry. (Just like people are really eager to be artists or musicians or pet vets or teachers etc.) Approximately everyone who programs for the game industry could also land a cushy job writing boring CRUD software. I do admit that it's tempting to show compassion for people who put up with crappy working conditions and low pay in order to work in their beloved field. (Especially if that field sounds socially desirable like teaching.) But unless you severely restrict entry to the beloved industry, conditions and pay will always be lousy compared to what similar skills could get you in an unglamorous field. That's just supply and demand. > Imagine being a SWE working 12+ hours a day 6 days a week getting no rest. I might have accidentally coded something like this so that I could go home a couple of hours earlier. In the case of the game industry, more likely so that you could work on the next ticket during the eternal death march.
- terminalcommand 4y ago
  Isn't it exploitation to benefit from programmers'/designers' love of gaming? Labour laws are there for a reason. I believe it is a basic human right to work reasonable hours and rest. Game development companies are making millions in profits, what stops them from hiring 2x the workforce so that each can work 8 hours a day 5 days a week instead of 12 hours x 6? The demand in the field is obvious. I personally would prefer ethically coded games if such a category existed. I get no fun from playing a game from a company that I know exploits people. Maybe that is the reason why indie games are so popular.
  - eru 4y ago
    As I said, programmers can already find relatively cushy CRUD jobs. So any 'exploitation' is in some sense voluntary. Would you say that Bundesliga footballers are exploited? They physically work much harder than programmers in the game industry. > Game development companies are making millions in profits, what stops them from hiring 2x the workforce so that each can work 8 hours a day 5 days a week instead of 12 hours x 6? The demand in the field is obvious. You can have a look at video game industry stock indexes. See eg https://etfdb.com/etfs/industry/gaming/ https://etfdb.com/etfs/industry/gaming/ or https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/010616/top-4-entertainment-etfs-2016-pej-xly.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/010616/top-4... If there's evil exploitation and excess profit, they don't seem show up in returns to shareholders. At least no better returns than any other industry. Including those with the cushy CRUD dev jobs.
    - terminalcommand 4y ago
      Sorry, I think you are mistaking stock price and profits. ETFS' performance is based on stock prices. Game companies still continue to make millions in profits. Stock price is not a reflection of profits. Hiring a recent college grad and working him 12+ hours a day with no rest is IMHO exploitation. This is why we have labour laws in the first place. Employers have too much power and influence. Offer a college grad the chance to work on games and above average pay, you get him on the hook. What you are not saying to him is that you'll overwork him breaching labour laws. I gave him a job, he wanted it, if he doesn't like it, he can leave is not sufficient to make it ethical nor legal. Please read this insider story on how brutal the working conditions are: https://ea-spouse.livejournal.com/274.html https://ea-spouse.livejournal.com/274.html I cannot comment on the comparison with Bundesliga footballers, because I have no experience in working a physical job. I am a knowledge worker.
      - eru 4y ago
        So who is supposed to be benefiting from the 'exploitation'?
dusted 4y ago
Certainly, I see I'm coming across as bashing the devs, that's not my intention.. It is my personal experience that cost of implementation is almost always the main restraint, it sounds rational when we put it this way.. Don't spend more on implementation than is needed.. Defining what's needed is more difficult.
smartmic 4y ago
> Alternative opinion here, 30 years ago games/software were much simpler. Funny coincidence, yesterday I posted a link which supports exactly your statement (even the 30 years): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33018669 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33018669

eru 4y ago

> Game industry is notoriously known for exploiting programmers. I'd be wary with these kinds of words. The thing is that people seem really, really eager to work in the video games industry. (Just like people are really eager to be artists or musicians or pet vets or teachers etc.) Approximately everyone who programs for the game industry could also land a cushy job writing boring CRUD software. I do admit that it's tempting to show compassion for people who put up with crappy working conditions and low pay in order to work in their beloved field. (Especially if that field sounds socially desirable like teaching.) But unless you severely restrict entry to the beloved industry, conditions and pay will always be lousy compared to what similar skills could get you in an unglamorous field. That's just supply and demand. > Imagine being a SWE working 12+ hours a day 6 days a week getting no rest. I might have accidentally coded something like this so that I could go home a couple of hours earlier. In the case of the game industry, more likely so that you could work on the next ticket during the eternal death march.

terminalcommand 4y ago
Isn't it exploitation to benefit from programmers'/designers' love of gaming? Labour laws are there for a reason. I believe it is a basic human right to work reasonable hours and rest. Game development companies are making millions in profits, what stops them from hiring 2x the workforce so that each can work 8 hours a day 5 days a week instead of 12 hours x 6? The demand in the field is obvious. I personally would prefer ethically coded games if such a category existed. I get no fun from playing a game from a company that I know exploits people. Maybe that is the reason why indie games are so popular.
- eru 4y ago
  As I said, programmers can already find relatively cushy CRUD jobs. So any 'exploitation' is in some sense voluntary. Would you say that Bundesliga footballers are exploited? They physically work much harder than programmers in the game industry. > Game development companies are making millions in profits, what stops them from hiring 2x the workforce so that each can work 8 hours a day 5 days a week instead of 12 hours x 6? The demand in the field is obvious. You can have a look at video game industry stock indexes. See eg https://etfdb.com/etfs/industry/gaming/ https://etfdb.com/etfs/industry/gaming/ or https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/010616/top-4-entertainment-etfs-2016-pej-xly.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/010616/top-4... If there's evil exploitation and excess profit, they don't seem show up in returns to shareholders. At least no better returns than any other industry. Including those with the cushy CRUD dev jobs.
  - terminalcommand 4y ago
    Sorry, I think you are mistaking stock price and profits. ETFS' performance is based on stock prices. Game companies still continue to make millions in profits. Stock price is not a reflection of profits. Hiring a recent college grad and working him 12+ hours a day with no rest is IMHO exploitation. This is why we have labour laws in the first place. Employers have too much power and influence. Offer a college grad the chance to work on games and above average pay, you get him on the hook. What you are not saying to him is that you'll overwork him breaching labour laws. I gave him a job, he wanted it, if he doesn't like it, he can leave is not sufficient to make it ethical nor legal. Please read this insider story on how brutal the working conditions are: https://ea-spouse.livejournal.com/274.html https://ea-spouse.livejournal.com/274.html I cannot comment on the comparison with Bundesliga footballers, because I have no experience in working a physical job. I am a knowledge worker.
    - eru 4y ago
      So who is supposed to be benefiting from the 'exploitation'?

dusted 4y ago

Certainly, I see I'm coming across as bashing the devs, that's not my intention.. It is my personal experience that cost of implementation is almost always the main restraint, it sounds rational when we put it this way.. Don't spend more on implementation than is needed.. Defining what's needed is more difficult.

smartmic 4y ago

> Alternative opinion here, 30 years ago games/software were much simpler. Funny coincidence, yesterday I posted a link which supports exactly your statement (even the 30 years): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33018669 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33018669