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This article is trying to focus on falling bullets, but the only death it mentions (the Syrian refugee in Lebanon) was killed by a stray shot fired more or less

by bhaney 4y ago

This article is trying to focus on falling bullets, but the only death it mentions (the Syrian refugee in Lebanon) was killed by a stray shot fired more or less horizontally from a rooftop, not from a bullet that was fired (approximately) straight up and then fell. And that's of course the real danger of celebratory gunfire - drunken partiers continuing to fire off shots as they're lowering their guns without thinking. Shots fired upwards generally aren't lethal on the way down because the terminal velocity of a tumbling bullet (which the simulation in this article isn't accounting for) is usually rather low.

kyleyeats 4y ago
Whether or not it tumbles or remains ballistic is the biggest factor here. Surprised the article just failed to mention it.
- detaro 4y ago
  > While the return velocity is dependent upon a number of factors, firing angle is extremely important. Bullets fired at an angle maintain their angular ballistic trajectory and are less likely to tumble, allowing them to pick up more speed on the way down. It doesn't go into detail, but it does mention it.
ycombinete 4y ago
It looks like you are responding to the first sentence of the article. The immediately following two sentences: "A small plane was shot down when it flew over a wedding party with guests celebrating the occasion by discharging firearms into the air. In California, five fans were injured inside the Oakland Coliseum by falling bullets fired from a neighboring community."
- bhaney 4y ago
  Those sentences don't mention deaths, which I specifically scoped my response to. Of course falling bullets can hurt people. I expect they would leave quite the welt.
  - ycombinete 4y ago
    Fair enough. They do cover the lethality of falling bullets. They seem to be fairly deadly. Most falling with enough force to pierce the skull. I'm not sure about their methodology.
    - treis 4y ago
      Their methodology is probably off because it doesn't seem to account for bullets tumbling. Bullets spin and that spin keeps the pointy end forward. If they're fired straight up and then fall back down they're going to end up tumbling. That makes their air resistance much higher and therefore much slower. It will also reduce the severity of impact. Instead of getting hit by the pointy end you're probably going to be hit by a bigger surface area.
  - d_tr 4y ago
    A dead 11 y.o. young boy outside a school and a now 95% paralyzed 7 y.o. girl are two examples off the top of my head which happened in Greece within the last five years. The bullets fell on the upper part of their heads. In the latter case, the mother said she heard a sound similar to piercing an egg's shell. In the latter case the murderer was actually found.
amitport 4y ago
People drinking and driving generally don't kill other people. Many times they just manage to get home or take part in a small accident. Point being, what's your point?
- eru 4y ago
  It's easy to find and mention deaths from drunk driving. The article could have mentioned deaths from falling bullets (if there are recorded instances). At the moment, it gives the impression that there are no instances.
  - amitport 4y ago
    Of course it kills. There are plenty of instances in the middle eastern and Arabic media where the phenomenon is more common. For example https://news.walla.co.il/item/785137 https://news.walla.co.il/item/785137
sfink 4y ago
In the methodology section: "...firing angle is extremely important. Bullets fired at an angle maintain their angular ballistic trajectory and are less likely to tumble, allowing them to pick up more speed on the way down." I wish that part had been better examined and explained. Perhaps the authors are trying to say that there's a chance that a bullet will NOT tumble, the probability strongly influenced by firing angle but always nonzero, and they're just talking about the subset of non-tumbling bullets? It would be helpful if they were more clear—given the moralistic tone of the entire piece, leaving that part vague weakens the argument. Random question: do blanks not have enough recoil to feel satisfying for a celebration/commemoration? I don't know much about guns.
- closewith 4y ago
  You need either specific blank firing guns or a blank firing adapter to partially obscure the barrel to allow blanks to generate enough pressure to cycle a weapon, so they wouldn't be particularly useful to the average celebratory AKM owner. Blanks are also expensive and difficult to find compared to live ammunition. They are also a lot less satisfying to fire, TBH.
  - whoooooo123 4y ago
    Blanks are more expensive than regular ammo? That's not what I would have guessed. Why are they more expensive?
    - detaro 4y ago
      Comparatively niche and low-volume product.
    - DuskStar 4y ago
      A lot of ammo is military surplus of one form or another, and the military doesn't have quite as much use for blanks.
  - daedalus_f 4y ago
    Interesting! I’d always assumed the yellow objects UK soldiers seem to have on the ends of their rifle barrels when simulating an engagement were to catch an accidental live round, but perhaps they have the purpose you suggest.
gexla 4y ago
> drunken partiers continuing to fire off shots as they're lowering their guns without thinking This is important. I'm not a gun expert, but I feel like if the safety is off, you should be aiming the thing. Aiming keeps your focus on where the bullet may travel if you pull the trigger. I did a short stint in the US military, but I wasn't infantry. It would be interesting to see how they train "muzzle discipline" and under what conditions the safety should be taken off. I saw some videos from the invasion of Ukraine where muzzle discipline was a problem. This is a training issue, but even the US military isn't immune to this. If you Google "Veterans React to 10th Mountain Division Room Clearing Video" you'll see the same issues, called "flagging." I'm assuming US infantry doesn't get much training in room clearing operations (maybe a special operations thing,) but it seems like "flagging" should be something they are taught to avoid regardless. I don't recall that being part of my own training though. It's a bit unsettling to be thinking about people with ADHD carrying loaded weapons all around you.
- yonaguska 4y ago
  > It's a bit unsettling to be thinking about people with ADHD carrying loaded weapons all around you. Umm, I've got ADHD and carry regularly. I just have safety rules that I follow habitually. I no longer shoot with certain people (that don't have ADHD) because they don't follow those rules and I got tired of correcting them.
- batch12 4y ago
  For the army this was absolutely taught and enforced in basic and reinforced throughout deployment. I don't even like toy guns pointed in my direction.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Jarmsy 4y ago
I'm disappointed they didn't also look at the odds of hitting someone, aside from what happens if it does. If it's landing somewhere random within an 800 ft radius, and there are 100 people within that range, how likely is it to hit one of them?
- bytehowl 4y ago
  I feel like you don't need a study for that, just some relatively simple math (don't ask me for it, I suck at it). However, anything above 0 is too much to be allowed.
toomanybeersies 4y ago
Machine guns were commonly used in an indirect fire role during the First World War, as the parabolic trajectory allowed machine gunners to target soldiers in trenches. Now I assume most people aren't using firearms chambered in .303 or another full-size rifle cartridge, but there's obviously various combinations of calibre + azimuth where shooting into the air is dangerous.
throw0101a 4y ago
> This article is trying to focus on falling bullets, but the only death it mentions […] Yes, because only deaths are important and/or traumatic for those involved: > Health Secretary Enrique Ona said Tuesday that the 413 wounded and hurt included a child who was hit in the head by a stray bullet fired by an unidentified person at the height of New Year's revelry in suburban Caloocan city in metropolitan Manila. > The 7-year-old girl is fighting for her life. > "The bullet's still embedded in her head," Ona told a news conference. "It looks like she may not be saved." * https://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/400-injured-philippines-new-year-mayhem-article-1.1230940 https://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/400-injured-philippin... Perhaps the issue is not finding reports, but that there are too many to single out: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire#Notable_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire#Notable_in... It's almost like reporting on that the sun rose this morning: obviously happening.
jmull 4y ago
Are you saying it's safe to be struck by a tumbling bullet falling down?
- blueflow 4y ago
  No, he wrote that its not lethal.
  - jmull 4y ago
    Exactly. The post is meaningless and unhelpful, clarifying a point that is unimportant. It's like being pedantic but doesn't even correct something from the article.
zikduruqe 4y ago
Perfectly straight up vertical this is true. But anything that is not 90 degrees, the rifling of the barrel keeps the bullet spinning. And here is something crazy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFDEGq7yVNc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFDEGq7yVNc

by bhaney 4y ago

kyleyeats 4y ago

Whether or not it tumbles or remains ballistic is the biggest factor here. Surprised the article just failed to mention it.

detaro 4y ago
> While the return velocity is dependent upon a number of factors, firing angle is extremely important. Bullets fired at an angle maintain their angular ballistic trajectory and are less likely to tumble, allowing them to pick up more speed on the way down. It doesn't go into detail, but it does mention it.

ycombinete 4y ago

It looks like you are responding to the first sentence of the article. The immediately following two sentences: "A small plane was shot down when it flew over a wedding party with guests celebrating the occasion by discharging firearms into the air. In California, five fans were injured inside the Oakland Coliseum by falling bullets fired from a neighboring community."

bhaney 4y ago
Those sentences don't mention deaths, which I specifically scoped my response to. Of course falling bullets can hurt people. I expect they would leave quite the welt.
- ycombinete 4y ago
  Fair enough. They do cover the lethality of falling bullets. They seem to be fairly deadly. Most falling with enough force to pierce the skull. I'm not sure about their methodology.
  - treis 4y ago
    Their methodology is probably off because it doesn't seem to account for bullets tumbling. Bullets spin and that spin keeps the pointy end forward. If they're fired straight up and then fall back down they're going to end up tumbling. That makes their air resistance much higher and therefore much slower. It will also reduce the severity of impact. Instead of getting hit by the pointy end you're probably going to be hit by a bigger surface area.
- d_tr 4y ago
  A dead 11 y.o. young boy outside a school and a now 95% paralyzed 7 y.o. girl are two examples off the top of my head which happened in Greece within the last five years. The bullets fell on the upper part of their heads. In the latter case, the mother said she heard a sound similar to piercing an egg's shell. In the latter case the murderer was actually found.

amitport 4y ago

People drinking and driving generally don't kill other people. Many times they just manage to get home or take part in a small accident. Point being, what's your point?

eru 4y ago
It's easy to find and mention deaths from drunk driving. The article could have mentioned deaths from falling bullets (if there are recorded instances). At the moment, it gives the impression that there are no instances.
- amitport 4y ago
  Of course it kills. There are plenty of instances in the middle eastern and Arabic media where the phenomenon is more common. For example https://news.walla.co.il/item/785137 https://news.walla.co.il/item/785137

sfink 4y ago

In the methodology section: "...firing angle is extremely important. Bullets fired at an angle maintain their angular ballistic trajectory and are less likely to tumble, allowing them to pick up more speed on the way down." I wish that part had been better examined and explained. Perhaps the authors are trying to say that there's a chance that a bullet will NOT tumble, the probability strongly influenced by firing angle but always nonzero, and they're just talking about the subset of non-tumbling bullets? It would be helpful if they were more clear—given the moralistic tone of the entire piece, leaving that part vague weakens the argument. Random question: do blanks not have enough recoil to feel satisfying for a celebration/commemoration? I don't know much about guns.

closewith 4y ago
You need either specific blank firing guns or a blank firing adapter to partially obscure the barrel to allow blanks to generate enough pressure to cycle a weapon, so they wouldn't be particularly useful to the average celebratory AKM owner. Blanks are also expensive and difficult to find compared to live ammunition. They are also a lot less satisfying to fire, TBH.
- whoooooo123 4y ago
  Blanks are more expensive than regular ammo? That's not what I would have guessed. Why are they more expensive?
  - detaro 4y ago
    Comparatively niche and low-volume product.
  - DuskStar 4y ago
    A lot of ammo is military surplus of one form or another, and the military doesn't have quite as much use for blanks.
- daedalus_f 4y ago
  Interesting! I’d always assumed the yellow objects UK soldiers seem to have on the ends of their rifle barrels when simulating an engagement were to catch an accidental live round, but perhaps they have the purpose you suggest.

gexla 4y ago

> drunken partiers continuing to fire off shots as they're lowering their guns without thinking This is important. I'm not a gun expert, but I feel like if the safety is off, you should be aiming the thing. Aiming keeps your focus on where the bullet may travel if you pull the trigger. I did a short stint in the US military, but I wasn't infantry. It would be interesting to see how they train "muzzle discipline" and under what conditions the safety should be taken off. I saw some videos from the invasion of Ukraine where muzzle discipline was a problem. This is a training issue, but even the US military isn't immune to this. If you Google "Veterans React to 10th Mountain Division Room Clearing Video" you'll see the same issues, called "flagging." I'm assuming US infantry doesn't get much training in room clearing operations (maybe a special operations thing,) but it seems like "flagging" should be something they are taught to avoid regardless. I don't recall that being part of my own training though. It's a bit unsettling to be thinking about people with ADHD carrying loaded weapons all around you.

yonaguska 4y ago
> It's a bit unsettling to be thinking about people with ADHD carrying loaded weapons all around you. Umm, I've got ADHD and carry regularly. I just have safety rules that I follow habitually. I no longer shoot with certain people (that don't have ADHD) because they don't follow those rules and I got tired of correcting them.
batch12 4y ago
For the army this was absolutely taught and enforced in basic and reinforced throughout deployment. I don't even like toy guns pointed in my direction.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Jarmsy 4y ago

I'm disappointed they didn't also look at the odds of hitting someone, aside from what happens if it does. If it's landing somewhere random within an 800 ft radius, and there are 100 people within that range, how likely is it to hit one of them?

bytehowl 4y ago
I feel like you don't need a study for that, just some relatively simple math (don't ask me for it, I suck at it). However, anything above 0 is too much to be allowed.

toomanybeersies 4y ago

Machine guns were commonly used in an indirect fire role during the First World War, as the parabolic trajectory allowed machine gunners to target soldiers in trenches. Now I assume most people aren't using firearms chambered in .303 or another full-size rifle cartridge, but there's obviously various combinations of calibre + azimuth where shooting into the air is dangerous.

throw0101a 4y ago

> This article is trying to focus on falling bullets, but the only death it mentions […] Yes, because only deaths are important and/or traumatic for those involved: > Health Secretary Enrique Ona said Tuesday that the 413 wounded and hurt included a child who was hit in the head by a stray bullet fired by an unidentified person at the height of New Year's revelry in suburban Caloocan city in metropolitan Manila. > The 7-year-old girl is fighting for her life. > "The bullet's still embedded in her head," Ona told a news conference. "It looks like she may not be saved." * https://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/400-injured-philippines-new-year-mayhem-article-1.1230940 https://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/400-injured-philippin... Perhaps the issue is not finding reports, but that there are too many to single out: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire#Notable_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire#Notable_in... It's almost like reporting on that the sun rose this morning: obviously happening.

jmull 4y ago

Are you saying it's safe to be struck by a tumbling bullet falling down?

blueflow 4y ago
No, he wrote that its not lethal.
- jmull 4y ago
  Exactly. The post is meaningless and unhelpful, clarifying a point that is unimportant. It's like being pedantic but doesn't even correct something from the article.

zikduruqe 4y ago

Perfectly straight up vertical this is true. But anything that is not 90 degrees, the rifling of the barrel keeps the bullet spinning. And here is something crazy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFDEGq7yVNc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFDEGq7yVNc