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I can't say I was able to really practice this stuff. Here's one thing which did happen, though: while describing a particular failure, I said "<name> and <nam

I can't say I was able to really practice this stuff. Here's one thing which did happen, though: while describing a particular failure, I said "<name> and <name> dropped the ball on this one". One of the guys on my team really objected to that. He didn't like hearing it from me. I thought for a second and said, "hey, wait, you don't react like that when <guy in area> says the same thing". He just got really quiet and never really addressed the issue. I tried again: "How is it that the same words coming out of my mouth are bad when they were just fine coming out of the mouth of some man? What year is this again?" I find that's what tends to happen: they get quiet and mentally set some bit on me that means "evil bitch".

chc 15y ago
Outright accusing people of sexism absolutely will make them shut off to you. So will accusing them of puppy-kicking and any number of other things where they don't want to think of themselves as That Kind Of Person (even if they really do act that way sometimes) — but sexism is particularly volatile because there's an implicit threat of a lawsuit on top of the moral judgment. It's one of those things where, if somebody accuses you, it's probably in your interest to avoid contact with them. I'd recommend reading up on the topic of persuading people if you feel shaky. "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a pretty good classic starter. How you approach this kind of stuff can make all the difference in the world. (And I'm not saying that they weren't unfairly discriminating against you. But there are good ways and less-good ways to address that situation, and picking a fight should usually be a last resort IMO.)
- Mz 15y ago
  Outright accusing people of sexism absolutely will make them shut off to you. Yes. And respectfully and carefully playing to their ideals when they are uncomfortable with the reality your actions have just cast light on is a good way to move the bar, far more effective than such a personal attack. I don't know how it would apply in a work setting, but my ex husband had a big disconnect between his non-sexist ideals and the way he lived/assumptions he made. On more than one occasion, I played to his ideals and kept my mouth shut about his sometimes weeks-long grumpiness over the friction between his ideals and his unstated assumptions/expectations. This allowed me to gradually improve the latitude I had for pursuing my own goals in a situation where I was 100% financially dependent, with special needs kids in tow. Humans are kind of like buggy software. There is often contradiction between what they believe and how they behave. That fact can be used as a force for good rather than just an accusation. You just have to put the emphasis on the part you want to grow rather than on the part you are offended by.
- davedx 15y ago
  I can't believe someone is being told to read 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' because they called someone out about being sexist. She is not the one who needs to change!
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
thesteamboat 15y ago
I'm confused. Was this an objection to your terminology, or just to hearing you criticize someone? Either one is totally preposterous, but I'm sitting here trying to imagine how someone could find the phrase 'dropped the ball' as offensive. Was it perceived as innuendo or something? Really now?
- andrewflnr 15y ago
  No one likes to be called out for screwing up. It just depends who they'll take it from, whether they think the one saying it is qualified. For what it's worth, "what year is this again?" and similar sarcasm would probably sound rude coming from anyone.
- rachelbythebay 15y ago
  I don't think the individual in question read any sort of innuendo into it, and I certainly wasn't doing that, either. His take on it was basically it was an awful thing for me to say. When you look at it, "an awful thing for you to say" can be parsed two ways. It might be an awful thing for anyone to say, or it might be an awful thing when it's coming out of the mouth of /certain people/. I considered both of those in an instant, and realized that it couldn't be #1 because he never objected to having someone else say the same sort of thing. That left me with #2. As for the wording, I don't play baseball and I don't watch baseball, but I know that if you "drop the ball", you've basically let the team down. It was yours to make or break, and you broke it. There's enough of the game covered in popular culture to make that very clear: catch the ball or else.
lusr 15y ago
Somebody posted this link on an earlier thread about this topic: http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm Based on the theories in that talk, and on my own experience, guys are more likely to build little empires among other guys, even within a business. When you criticise a member of their "tribe" they will get defensive on this basis regardless of the facts presented because men have a tendency to value their social network over individual bonds (i.e. with you, by respecting your legitimate opinion). If this is a good model of what's going on, it seems there's little you can do other than leave because it sounds like you're not interested in being a tribe member (if the guys even let you). It also makes me believe these tribes are going to be inevitable in a male-dominated work environment where the men haven't been selected or trained otherwise, which is something important for leaders to be aware of.

chc 15y ago

Outright accusing people of sexism absolutely will make them shut off to you. So will accusing them of puppy-kicking and any number of other things where they don't want to think of themselves as That Kind Of Person (even if they really do act that way sometimes) — but sexism is particularly volatile because there's an implicit threat of a lawsuit on top of the moral judgment. It's one of those things where, if somebody accuses you, it's probably in your interest to avoid contact with them. I'd recommend reading up on the topic of persuading people if you feel shaky. "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a pretty good classic starter. How you approach this kind of stuff can make all the difference in the world. (And I'm not saying that they weren't unfairly discriminating against you. But there are good ways and less-good ways to address that situation, and picking a fight should usually be a last resort IMO.)

Mz 15y ago
Outright accusing people of sexism absolutely will make them shut off to you. Yes. And respectfully and carefully playing to their ideals when they are uncomfortable with the reality your actions have just cast light on is a good way to move the bar, far more effective than such a personal attack. I don't know how it would apply in a work setting, but my ex husband had a big disconnect between his non-sexist ideals and the way he lived/assumptions he made. On more than one occasion, I played to his ideals and kept my mouth shut about his sometimes weeks-long grumpiness over the friction between his ideals and his unstated assumptions/expectations. This allowed me to gradually improve the latitude I had for pursuing my own goals in a situation where I was 100% financially dependent, with special needs kids in tow. Humans are kind of like buggy software. There is often contradiction between what they believe and how they behave. That fact can be used as a force for good rather than just an accusation. You just have to put the emphasis on the part you want to grow rather than on the part you are offended by.
davedx 15y ago
I can't believe someone is being told to read 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' because they called someone out about being sexist. She is not the one who needs to change!
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]

thesteamboat 15y ago

I'm confused. Was this an objection to your terminology, or just to hearing you criticize someone? Either one is totally preposterous, but I'm sitting here trying to imagine how someone could find the phrase 'dropped the ball' as offensive. Was it perceived as innuendo or something? Really now?

andrewflnr 15y ago
No one likes to be called out for screwing up. It just depends who they'll take it from, whether they think the one saying it is qualified. For what it's worth, "what year is this again?" and similar sarcasm would probably sound rude coming from anyone.
rachelbythebay 15y ago
I don't think the individual in question read any sort of innuendo into it, and I certainly wasn't doing that, either. His take on it was basically it was an awful thing for me to say. When you look at it, "an awful thing for you to say" can be parsed two ways. It might be an awful thing for anyone to say, or it might be an awful thing when it's coming out of the mouth of /certain people/. I considered both of those in an instant, and realized that it couldn't be #1 because he never objected to having someone else say the same sort of thing. That left me with #2. As for the wording, I don't play baseball and I don't watch baseball, but I know that if you "drop the ball", you've basically let the team down. It was yours to make or break, and you broke it. There's enough of the game covered in popular culture to make that very clear: catch the ball or else.

lusr 15y ago

Somebody posted this link on an earlier thread about this topic: http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm Based on the theories in that talk, and on my own experience, guys are more likely to build little empires among other guys, even within a business. When you criticise a member of their "tribe" they will get defensive on this basis regardless of the facts presented because men have a tendency to value their social network over individual bonds (i.e. with you, by respecting your legitimate opinion). If this is a good model of what's going on, it seems there's little you can do other than leave because it sounds like you're not interested in being a tribe member (if the guys even let you). It also makes me believe these tribes are going to be inevitable in a male-dominated work environment where the men haven't been selected or trained otherwise, which is something important for leaders to be aware of.