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Im not a web3 person at all but I find these comparisons to say Bitcoin is hurting the climate pointless. It's the electricity source is the problem. Sure it ta

by AnEro 4y ago

Im not a web3 person at all but I find these comparisons to say Bitcoin is hurting the climate pointless. It's the electricity source is the problem. Sure it takes a ton of electricity to mine but why is it the consumer's fault for using a service they don't have another option to use. Are we supposed to switch powergirds? Are we supposed to all create our own green power grid? It's awfully convenient it's the consumer's fault not large organizations and governments not upgrading a power grid when we knew this was an issue for decades

xracy 4y ago
This reads like you're actually defending bitcoin, but you know that it's not cool, so you're describing your support as if you don't support it. (Not saying you do, just saying how this comment comes across now that I've seen it in 2 places). Why do people need to mine bitcoin. One piece of creating a green power grid is lowering unnecessary uses of electricity on said power grid. Bitcoin is an easy mark for that. We can't entirely greenify the power grid to make the same level of power that we're currently using. So part of the process is trimming excess. Given that framing, why isn't bitcoin excess?
- jkepler 4y ago
  But why single out Bitcoin? What about all the data centers serving Netflix movies? Others might say those are excess. Consider the annual energy consumption of tumble-dryers in the USA (which uses more energy than bitcoin mining): in Europe where I live most people I know hand their clothing to dry, thus they might consider American dryers to be an excess of electric consumption. Last time I checked, bitcoin miners have to compete for energy same as anyone else---and when energy prices rise, they move their operations to where its cheaper. That why they're using methane gas that would have been flared by oil companies to generate electricity to mine bitcoin in the west Texas oil fields... which is net positive, because the resulting CO2 emissions are 84x less carbon-intense for the atmosphere than the flared methane would have been. Or, there is Vespene Energy, a bitcoin mining startup helping US municipal landfill operators comply with new expensive EPA methane emissions regulations by using landfills emitted methane to generate electricity, which they then use to mine bitcoin and they share the profits with the landfill operators. The cool thing with their business model is they can simply sell the electricity to other grid customers, but the reason they often end up mining Bitcoin with the power is because the landfills are often not near cities or large areas of electricity demand. If one takes time to research this, one would see that bitcoin miners have a strong financial incentive to find the cheapest sources of power, which are typically stranded or waste power. Bitcoin mining is improving the environment.
  - djbusby 4y ago
    Where's the source on the methane usage? Last time that came up here IIRC it was a super small fraction of the energy production. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=bitcoin%20methane&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
    - jkepler 4y ago
      You're correct that using waste methane to generate electricity for bitcoin mining is small, but its growing, which is good news. And this is significant for the climate as methane gas has a /far/ larger warming effect than CO2. According to the IEA (International Energy Agency), acriculture, fossil fuels, and waste are the top three human sources of methane emissions (the too source, wetlands, is natural). Bitcoin mining companies have business models than can significantly mitigate the fossil fuels and landfills(waste) sources of human methane emissions. https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/sources-of-methane-emissions https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/sources-of-me...
      - djbusby 4y ago
        I'm not trying to be correct (I'm still confused). And here you stated they "can" mitigate - which sounds like it's not actually in practice (yet?)
  - socialismisok 4y ago
    Because Netflix and data centers provide a huge tangible good relative to their energy cost. Bitcoin just doesn't. It might in the future, but there way it runs today? No way.
    - dudebrooo 4y ago
      You are presenting a disingenuous argument, intentional or not. Netflix is literally 50% of "Bread and Circus". Bitcoin is a threat to the most important part of the power structure. With inflation raging and a cold European winter coming (and that's not to say that plenty in north america won't be choosing between heat and food) if I were you I would be more careful with how overtly you defend the propaganda outlets of the status quo.
- AnEro 4y ago
  I see it as any other computer usage for new tech. I get what you're saying, I just word vomited, I'm more upset about the power gird situation. Especially in my area, anything being privatized enough to inflate prices but not enough that you have a choice in what 'grid' you get power from. I am honestly very jaded about any news about climate change, shifting attention consumer side after seeing all the leaks happening. Sure bitcoin is wasteful but people are paying to be wasteful and are allowed to be doing that. I'd rather sort out the renewable energy source before convincing crypto bros of anything
stormbrew 4y ago
Bitcoin mining is a business activity, not consumption.
- AnEro 4y ago
  sure
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by AnEro 4y ago

xracy 4y ago

This reads like you're actually defending bitcoin, but you know that it's not cool, so you're describing your support as if you don't support it. (Not saying you do, just saying how this comment comes across now that I've seen it in 2 places). Why do people need to mine bitcoin. One piece of creating a green power grid is lowering unnecessary uses of electricity on said power grid. Bitcoin is an easy mark for that. We can't entirely greenify the power grid to make the same level of power that we're currently using. So part of the process is trimming excess. Given that framing, why isn't bitcoin excess?

jkepler 4y ago
But why single out Bitcoin? What about all the data centers serving Netflix movies? Others might say those are excess. Consider the annual energy consumption of tumble-dryers in the USA (which uses more energy than bitcoin mining): in Europe where I live most people I know hand their clothing to dry, thus they might consider American dryers to be an excess of electric consumption. Last time I checked, bitcoin miners have to compete for energy same as anyone else---and when energy prices rise, they move their operations to where its cheaper. That why they're using methane gas that would have been flared by oil companies to generate electricity to mine bitcoin in the west Texas oil fields... which is net positive, because the resulting CO2 emissions are 84x less carbon-intense for the atmosphere than the flared methane would have been. Or, there is Vespene Energy, a bitcoin mining startup helping US municipal landfill operators comply with new expensive EPA methane emissions regulations by using landfills emitted methane to generate electricity, which they then use to mine bitcoin and they share the profits with the landfill operators. The cool thing with their business model is they can simply sell the electricity to other grid customers, but the reason they often end up mining Bitcoin with the power is because the landfills are often not near cities or large areas of electricity demand. If one takes time to research this, one would see that bitcoin miners have a strong financial incentive to find the cheapest sources of power, which are typically stranded or waste power. Bitcoin mining is improving the environment.
- djbusby 4y ago
  Where's the source on the methane usage? Last time that came up here IIRC it was a super small fraction of the energy production. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=bitcoin%20methane&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
  - jkepler 4y ago
    You're correct that using waste methane to generate electricity for bitcoin mining is small, but its growing, which is good news. And this is significant for the climate as methane gas has a /far/ larger warming effect than CO2. According to the IEA (International Energy Agency), acriculture, fossil fuels, and waste are the top three human sources of methane emissions (the too source, wetlands, is natural). Bitcoin mining companies have business models than can significantly mitigate the fossil fuels and landfills(waste) sources of human methane emissions. https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/sources-of-methane-emissions https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/sources-of-me...
    - djbusby 4y ago
      I'm not trying to be correct (I'm still confused). And here you stated they "can" mitigate - which sounds like it's not actually in practice (yet?)
- socialismisok 4y ago
  Because Netflix and data centers provide a huge tangible good relative to their energy cost. Bitcoin just doesn't. It might in the future, but there way it runs today? No way.
  - dudebrooo 4y ago
    You are presenting a disingenuous argument, intentional or not. Netflix is literally 50% of "Bread and Circus". Bitcoin is a threat to the most important part of the power structure. With inflation raging and a cold European winter coming (and that's not to say that plenty in north america won't be choosing between heat and food) if I were you I would be more careful with how overtly you defend the propaganda outlets of the status quo.
AnEro 4y ago
I see it as any other computer usage for new tech. I get what you're saying, I just word vomited, I'm more upset about the power gird situation. Especially in my area, anything being privatized enough to inflate prices but not enough that you have a choice in what 'grid' you get power from. I am honestly very jaded about any news about climate change, shifting attention consumer side after seeing all the leaks happening. Sure bitcoin is wasteful but people are paying to be wasteful and are allowed to be doing that. I'd rather sort out the renewable energy source before convincing crypto bros of anything

stormbrew 4y ago

Bitcoin mining is a business activity, not consumption.

AnEro 4y ago
sure

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]