5 ms·

It's complicated. Unfortunately real life is never binary. There are several gradations between open internet and dystopian closed internet that only allows you

by _gabe_ 4y ago

It's complicated. Unfortunately real life is never binary. There are several gradations between open internet and dystopian closed internet that only allows you to see what the governing powers want you to see. Most people are somewhere in the middle, as with all things.

ok123456 4y ago
Nope. There is no middle ground. It. Is. Not. Complicated. Either you think of the internet as a utility where everyone is equal, like a telephone, or you think people should be "nudged" into harmonious behavior, where it takes on the worst aspects of a broadcast medium. The problem with "nudging" people is there's an equal and opposite reaction through the cybernetic system. For instance, adding fact check labels to every sensitive topic, COVID vaccines for instance, will lead people to think that it's all part of a larger conspiracy and they'll get a hit of dopamine when they "follow the qlues."
- lovich 4y ago
  Even utilities have limits on the behavior you can use with them. Granted you gotta really go out of your way to trigger those limits but there is no society wide system in existence that follows that level of openness
  - ok123456 4y ago
    Doing actual actual crimes or committing a fraud using the phone, computer, fax, telex, or whatever other electronic means generally falls under wire fraud. The phone company doesn't de-platform "literal nazis" simply for being "literal nazis."
    - lovich 4y ago
      You are correct, but now you are getting into shades of grey more nuanced than > Either you believe in an open internet or you don't. Either you're with us, or you're against us.
      - ok123456 4y ago
        The distinction is between perfectly legal speech, and specific acts fraud or things that are direct, actionable, and credible threats to physical safety (e.g., bomb threats). This isn't a complicated blah blah, where we need a technocratic meta-god to put his thumb on the scales. The existing legal pre-computer legal frameworks cover these cases.
    - Spivak 4y ago
      And if the literal nazis we’re actually using a private person to person (can be through a service) communication medium like a phone the number of people who want them deplatformed would drop to basically zero. Your argument has to account for the fact that Twitter is more like public radio than a phone and that WhatsApp is more like a phone than radio.
      - EricDeb 4y ago
        To be fair I do see articles written pointing to the fact that hate groups are using signal or discord, the implication being that such companies are "platforming" those groups.
    - yibg 4y ago
      What happens if the literally nazis robo called thousands of people with nazi propaganda?
      - lmm 4y ago
        They might get cut off for robocalling, but (if the telephone company is obeying the law) in a content-neutral way.
      - ok123456 4y ago
        https://www.fcc.gov/rules-political-campaign-calls-and-texts https://www.fcc.gov/rules-political-campaign-calls-and-texts
boppo1 4y ago
>Most people are somewhere in the middle, as with all things. And they're wrong. I'd agree that perhaps there should be guardrails, but for those who want to leave the safe-zone, it ought to remain without filters. It's about the same argument as general computing. Should it be illegal to have root access on your devices? Do you think it's a fair compromise in order to be able to have convenient streaming entertainment? I rooted my android phone and now I can't access Netflix (well, not without putting in effort I don't care to). Fair trade for me, I prefer to actually have control over my devices.

by _gabe_ 4y ago

ok123456 4y ago

Nope. There is no middle ground. It. Is. Not. Complicated. Either you think of the internet as a utility where everyone is equal, like a telephone, or you think people should be "nudged" into harmonious behavior, where it takes on the worst aspects of a broadcast medium. The problem with "nudging" people is there's an equal and opposite reaction through the cybernetic system. For instance, adding fact check labels to every sensitive topic, COVID vaccines for instance, will lead people to think that it's all part of a larger conspiracy and they'll get a hit of dopamine when they "follow the qlues."

lovich 4y ago
Even utilities have limits on the behavior you can use with them. Granted you gotta really go out of your way to trigger those limits but there is no society wide system in existence that follows that level of openness
- ok123456 4y ago
  Doing actual actual crimes or committing a fraud using the phone, computer, fax, telex, or whatever other electronic means generally falls under wire fraud. The phone company doesn't de-platform "literal nazis" simply for being "literal nazis."
  - lovich 4y ago
    You are correct, but now you are getting into shades of grey more nuanced than > Either you believe in an open internet or you don't. Either you're with us, or you're against us.
    - ok123456 4y ago
      The distinction is between perfectly legal speech, and specific acts fraud or things that are direct, actionable, and credible threats to physical safety (e.g., bomb threats). This isn't a complicated blah blah, where we need a technocratic meta-god to put his thumb on the scales. The existing legal pre-computer legal frameworks cover these cases.
  - Spivak 4y ago
    And if the literal nazis we’re actually using a private person to person (can be through a service) communication medium like a phone the number of people who want them deplatformed would drop to basically zero. Your argument has to account for the fact that Twitter is more like public radio than a phone and that WhatsApp is more like a phone than radio.
    - EricDeb 4y ago
      To be fair I do see articles written pointing to the fact that hate groups are using signal or discord, the implication being that such companies are "platforming" those groups.
  - yibg 4y ago
    What happens if the literally nazis robo called thousands of people with nazi propaganda?
    - lmm 4y ago
      They might get cut off for robocalling, but (if the telephone company is obeying the law) in a content-neutral way.
    - ok123456 4y ago
      https://www.fcc.gov/rules-political-campaign-calls-and-texts https://www.fcc.gov/rules-political-campaign-calls-and-texts

boppo1 4y ago

>Most people are somewhere in the middle, as with all things. And they're wrong. I'd agree that perhaps there should be guardrails, but for those who want to leave the safe-zone, it ought to remain without filters. It's about the same argument as general computing. Should it be illegal to have root access on your devices? Do you think it's a fair compromise in order to be able to have convenient streaming entertainment? I rooted my android phone and now I can't access Netflix (well, not without putting in effort I don't care to). Fair trade for me, I prefer to actually have control over my devices.