7 ms·

The real story here is how we let mobile phones become completely closed and privative environments, and how credit card companies got into politics for some re

The real story here is how we let mobile phones become completely closed and privative environments, and how credit card companies got into politics for some reason. Seems like hackers of today have really let down the public. Even bitcoin is 13 years old and I know nobody getting into it for utilitarian reasons unless they are already into it for investing.

numpad0 4y ago
This is closest what I was trying to say - it started with Apple App Store's no-sideload and zero-porn policy, from which it snowballed.
ska 4y ago
It's not obvious to me that CC companies are acting out of political leaning, it could conceivably be mostly risk based.
- _dain_ 4y ago
  trust me it's political.
  - cecilpl2 4y ago
    I'm sure you're a nice person but I don't just trust unsubstantiated claims I read on the internet.
- aetherson 4y ago
  Someone asserted to me that porn purchases have a really horrific chargeback rate, and that's the main reason credit card companies are against them. It sounds at least superficially plausible.
  - notyourday 4y ago
    That's not really true. I consulted for two companies that provided payment processing services for... non family friendly websites. They were making out like bandits charging ~30% fees. The blended charge back rate for this side of business was about 5%. The blended charge back rate for the family friendly side of business was around 3%
- ravi-delia 4y ago
  I'm certain the reason CC companies want to drop adult services is because of the vastly increased risk of charge backs, but I suspect they'd cast a wider net if not for politics. Absent the risk they'd be happy to pocket the cash, but with it public opinion gives them an out
  - arsome 4y ago
    If it were just an increased risk of charge backs, surely they could just charge them higher fees and make it work out. Or tell them they have to eat all the chargebacks.
    - PTcartelsLOL 4y ago
      Not really. Merchants are the one who eat the chargebck costs plus the $20 fee for processing it that VISA/MC charge them. That's just pure utter bullshit.
    - easrng 4y ago
      Or they could just require 3d secure which iirc lets them say "you did 2fa when you purchased, we know this wasn't a fraudulent transaction, fuck off."
- Symmetry 4y ago
  Credit card companies acting to limit risk from discretionary enforcement of ambiguous regulations is also sort of political.
- patrickmcguire 4y ago
  If you look at the timing of these decisions, it's pretty clear that that yeah it's risk based, but the risks are political. It's only a week between this op-ed calling on the credit card companies to drop Pornhub and them following through on it. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/04/opinion/sunday/pornhub-rape-trafficking.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/04/opinion/sunday/pornhub-ra... There was a flurry of congressional bills specifically citing that article at the time. (Here's one for example: https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-introduced-criminalizing-websites-pornhub-hosting-sex-trafficking-revenge-porn-2020-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-introduced-criminalizin...) I can't find one that specifically threatens the payment processors, most go after the sites or their hosting providers, but the payment processors probably had the sense to realize they were in the blast radius and that it was best to pre-emptively self regulate.
colechristensen 4y ago
The credit card companies had a point. By transacting with platforms that openly didn’t care about selling access to content of unwilling, exploited, and underage people, the payment processors opened themselves up to liability and moral guilt. There is a difference between well moderated platforms and platforms that do a halfassed job and pretend that’s ok.
simonbarker87 4y ago
This is also, I think, a reflection of American values and culture on the internet and so also a failure of other countries to own more of the internet/tech world. Other countries (especially European) are far less bothered by nudity and adult content.
mftb 4y ago
> Seems like hackers of today have really let down the public. I disagree. It seems like if anything, it's the public of today that has let down the hackers. In all honesty though, it's probably more just, "people gonna people."
- aliqot 4y ago
  It's a tragedy of the commons. You used to have to -want- to be a hacker, and connectivity much less the processing power to receive it was not guaranteed. I had to mow lawns to get a ride to the library to read dusty Bell UNIX surplus manuals. You were lucky to even meet someone other than Dewey D who knew the same words or the nature of what you were doing. Consequently, when you met someone online, it didn't matter what kind of weirdo they were. You knew that when you were in certain spaces that anybody there had some special something and that kinship bridged all gaps and mismatches. Those friendships were forever and we didn't even know eachother's names or faces. That's not guaranteed now. Now everyone has an apollo mission's worth of compute on their wrist/pocket and the swill is so sweet nobody's hungry. If you extrapolate the current situation to other events in history, we're headed for danger and that's a good thing, we need that struggle. "Crises precipitate change", Deltron3030 was right. p.s. don't say 'mainframe' say 'cloud', you're all set.
  - caust1c 4y ago
    Love me some Deltron 3030 prophecy.
- seydor 4y ago
  both. but the hackers mistook popularity for quality, and it's not.
CoolGuySteve 4y ago
Mobile apps are so bloated and intrusive these days that I vastly prefer the web app version of most social media sites even when they're feature limited like Facebook. Originally I switched to using home screen bookmarks to save some storage on a cheap iPhone but now I can't go back. I wonder how long it will be until a popular social media site avoids the app stores completely due to content and payment restrictions.
vlunkr 4y ago
How are hackers responsible for mobile phones becoming closed? I think that falls pretty squarely on Apple.
- q-big 4y ago
  > How are hackers responsible for mobile phones becoming closed? I think that falls pretty squarely on Apple. Even worse: a huge amount of (former) hackers defended this kind of golden cage because they loved the iPhone and worshipped Steve Jobs. :-(
lmm 4y ago
Credit card companies didn't get into politics, politics got into credit card companies. The USG (correctly) identified Visa and Mastercard as the "choke point" that would allow them to take action against things they dislike in ways that would be unconstitutional if they did it directly.
seydor 4y ago
never touched any of the mobile platforms (i did a bit, but quickly dropped) . It's possible to make money just on the web. Don't drink the AAPL+GOOG koolaid

numpad0 4y ago

This is closest what I was trying to say - it started with Apple App Store's no-sideload and zero-porn policy, from which it snowballed.

ska 4y ago

It's not obvious to me that CC companies are acting out of political leaning, it could conceivably be mostly risk based.

_dain_ 4y ago
trust me it's political.
- cecilpl2 4y ago
  I'm sure you're a nice person but I don't just trust unsubstantiated claims I read on the internet.
aetherson 4y ago
Someone asserted to me that porn purchases have a really horrific chargeback rate, and that's the main reason credit card companies are against them. It sounds at least superficially plausible.
- notyourday 4y ago
  That's not really true. I consulted for two companies that provided payment processing services for... non family friendly websites. They were making out like bandits charging ~30% fees. The blended charge back rate for this side of business was about 5%. The blended charge back rate for the family friendly side of business was around 3%
ravi-delia 4y ago
I'm certain the reason CC companies want to drop adult services is because of the vastly increased risk of charge backs, but I suspect they'd cast a wider net if not for politics. Absent the risk they'd be happy to pocket the cash, but with it public opinion gives them an out
- arsome 4y ago
  If it were just an increased risk of charge backs, surely they could just charge them higher fees and make it work out. Or tell them they have to eat all the chargebacks.
  - PTcartelsLOL 4y ago
    Not really. Merchants are the one who eat the chargebck costs plus the $20 fee for processing it that VISA/MC charge them. That's just pure utter bullshit.
  - easrng 4y ago
    Or they could just require 3d secure which iirc lets them say "you did 2fa when you purchased, we know this wasn't a fraudulent transaction, fuck off."
Symmetry 4y ago
Credit card companies acting to limit risk from discretionary enforcement of ambiguous regulations is also sort of political.
patrickmcguire 4y ago
If you look at the timing of these decisions, it's pretty clear that that yeah it's risk based, but the risks are political. It's only a week between this op-ed calling on the credit card companies to drop Pornhub and them following through on it. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/04/opinion/sunday/pornhub-rape-trafficking.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/04/opinion/sunday/pornhub-ra... There was a flurry of congressional bills specifically citing that article at the time. (Here's one for example: https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-introduced-criminalizing-websites-pornhub-hosting-sex-trafficking-revenge-porn-2020-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-introduced-criminalizin...) I can't find one that specifically threatens the payment processors, most go after the sites or their hosting providers, but the payment processors probably had the sense to realize they were in the blast radius and that it was best to pre-emptively self regulate.

colechristensen 4y ago

The credit card companies had a point. By transacting with platforms that openly didn’t care about selling access to content of unwilling, exploited, and underage people, the payment processors opened themselves up to liability and moral guilt. There is a difference between well moderated platforms and platforms that do a halfassed job and pretend that’s ok.

simonbarker87 4y ago

This is also, I think, a reflection of American values and culture on the internet and so also a failure of other countries to own more of the internet/tech world. Other countries (especially European) are far less bothered by nudity and adult content.

mftb 4y ago

> Seems like hackers of today have really let down the public. I disagree. It seems like if anything, it's the public of today that has let down the hackers. In all honesty though, it's probably more just, "people gonna people."

aliqot 4y ago
It's a tragedy of the commons. You used to have to -want- to be a hacker, and connectivity much less the processing power to receive it was not guaranteed. I had to mow lawns to get a ride to the library to read dusty Bell UNIX surplus manuals. You were lucky to even meet someone other than Dewey D who knew the same words or the nature of what you were doing. Consequently, when you met someone online, it didn't matter what kind of weirdo they were. You knew that when you were in certain spaces that anybody there had some special something and that kinship bridged all gaps and mismatches. Those friendships were forever and we didn't even know eachother's names or faces. That's not guaranteed now. Now everyone has an apollo mission's worth of compute on their wrist/pocket and the swill is so sweet nobody's hungry. If you extrapolate the current situation to other events in history, we're headed for danger and that's a good thing, we need that struggle. "Crises precipitate change", Deltron3030 was right. p.s. don't say 'mainframe' say 'cloud', you're all set.
- caust1c 4y ago
  Love me some Deltron 3030 prophecy.
seydor 4y ago
both. but the hackers mistook popularity for quality, and it's not.

CoolGuySteve 4y ago

Mobile apps are so bloated and intrusive these days that I vastly prefer the web app version of most social media sites even when they're feature limited like Facebook. Originally I switched to using home screen bookmarks to save some storage on a cheap iPhone but now I can't go back. I wonder how long it will be until a popular social media site avoids the app stores completely due to content and payment restrictions.

vlunkr 4y ago

How are hackers responsible for mobile phones becoming closed? I think that falls pretty squarely on Apple.

q-big 4y ago
> How are hackers responsible for mobile phones becoming closed? I think that falls pretty squarely on Apple. Even worse: a huge amount of (former) hackers defended this kind of golden cage because they loved the iPhone and worshipped Steve Jobs. :-(

lmm 4y ago

Credit card companies didn't get into politics, politics got into credit card companies. The USG (correctly) identified Visa and Mastercard as the "choke point" that would allow them to take action against things they dislike in ways that would be unconstitutional if they did it directly.

seydor 4y ago

never touched any of the mobile platforms (i did a bit, but quickly dropped) . It's possible to make money just on the web. Don't drink the AAPL+GOOG koolaid