4 ms·

Even as a man negotiating can have preprocussions, I've had my access to sales data revoked (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when you put dev milestones next

by fleitz 15y ago

Even as a man negotiating can have preprocussions, I've had my access to sales data revoked (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when you put dev milestones next to sales increases), been accused of blackmail (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when they offer you a vacation and you ask for a raise), accused of lowering employee moral (thanks for turning down my request for a raise, I decided to become a team player and get my team raises, sorry that cost you three times what i was asking for), etc. All because I was a programmer who wanted money instead of free sodas, and worthless stock options. I could ask tough questions about stock option grants, as well as speak convincingly to other employees about the pay structure and the EV of the options. When they give you some BS about the stock being worth X ask them about liquidity events. Yeah, it's great that you want to turn this biz into a billion dollar company but when that horizon is after the options expire it means the options are worthless. (It's best to ask these questions on separate occasions so the CEO is unaware of the play) As a college dropout I sure don't 'know my place' and I really don't care to take the place society has designated my class. Sure, some people think I'm self-centered but fundamentally you go to work to earn money. If the team can't make sacrifices for me then I don't care to make sacrifices for it. As an employee I invest my time, and I expect a liquidity preference, just like the company's VCs do. A VC can always get their money back from some other source, I can never get my time back. In the words of Ray Liotta in Good Fellas: Fuck you, pay me!

natrius 15y ago
"I've had my access to sales data revoked (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when you put dev milestones next to sales increases)" Giant red flag. If someone's wiling to hide information that helps you do your job in order to minimize your credit, something is horribly wrong.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
sneak 15y ago
> In the words of Ray Liotta in Good Fellas: Fuck you, pay me! I always ask new clients if they've seen Goodfellas.
coffeemug 15y ago
I run a startup, so I'm on the other side of the fence, but to me it sounds like you've encountered repercussions because of your attitude. As a founder, I love when people ask questions, do their legal diligence, specify their compensation requirements up front so no one's time is wasted, ask about market challenges, and yes, even negotiate for a fair compensation if I haven't been paying attention and it turns out they're underpaid. (Sometimes I loathe having candidates go elsewhere because big-cos can offer them a higher salary, but if I can't sell them on the vision/culture, I always wish them well). What I cannot stand is people that are being jerks about it. The guy that opens the first five minutes of an interview with an antagonistic question about stock options before we even got through the first technical question. The smug guy that comes into our office and starts pointing out holes in our product/strategy barely after we said our hellos (I've only been working on the company for two years, don't you think I thought of that?). The gal that can't program her way out of a for loop, and claims to everyone who's willing to listen she's being discriminated against. Believe it or not, not everyone is out to get you. Some people are genuinely trying to do good work, have everyone well compensated with equity, and pay fair salaries while not running out of cash too early. If you're unhappy with the compensation, nobody will fault you if you leave for greener pastures. It's the smug, antagonistic, cynical jerks that everyone hates.
- calibraxis 15y ago
  I've met my fair share of founder jerks. Whether or not you and I are jerks is immaterial to the fact that when haggling over money, each side is in an antagonistic relationship. Each is rewarded for extracting virtually as much as they can from the other. (Personally, I think it's an absurd system.) And I don't know about you, but I do know a gal who CAN "program her way out of a for loop" — I've seen her do it, such females actually exist — and if you're a decent listener, they may do you the favor of telling you about the extra crap they face due to men's kooky gender ideologies. Anyway that said, I agree you can hack somewhat better pay out of a manager by handling them properly. Much of their professional world is social, so they are extra-sensitive to social cues. And software developers at this moment have far stronger bargaining positions than many other workers. Among the advice that helped me (but YMMV): * Reading _Getting to Yes_. There are alternatives to domination and passivity. * Asking more than their highest range — if they negotiate me down, I did something right. * Building my bargaining position by: increasing my relevant knowledge/ability, being a good presenter and listener/talker, overkilling the technical puzzles which you can do at home, and being able to walk away from a given deal. AI prof Patrick Winston has helpful tips on giving presentations: (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9F536001A3C605FC http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9F536001A3C605FC) * Note that the initial hiring decision is when the market transaction is made. If you get it right, having brought your forces to bear on it, it's out of the way. (David Graber's _Debt: The First 5000 Years_ has some interesting words on this phenomenon.) Of course, the goal depends on whether you're negotiating with a wealthy firm, a cash-strapped startup, or a social justice organization.
wisty 15y ago
Well, you are being a bit of a jerk. It's justified in some circumstances (like, when the CEO is also being a bit of a jerk, which sounds like it's the case), but you still come across as very hardnosed. The difference is, a girl who asks for a decent salary, rather than the first offer is often seen as being just as hardnosed as the guy who asks for a much higher salary, and stock options, then demands a big raise every time he's on critical path. Being seen as hardnosed is not a good thing if you're not getting paid for it. It's kind of like how guys who don't shower will be seen as unprofessional, but possibly brilliant; while girls who don't shower are just seen as unprofessional.

by fleitz 15y ago

natrius 15y ago

"I've had my access to sales data revoked (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when you put dev milestones next to sales increases)" Giant red flag. If someone's wiling to hide information that helps you do your job in order to minimize your credit, something is horribly wrong.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

sneak 15y ago

> In the words of Ray Liotta in Good Fellas: Fuck you, pay me! I always ask new clients if they've seen Goodfellas.

coffeemug 15y ago

I run a startup, so I'm on the other side of the fence, but to me it sounds like you've encountered repercussions because of your attitude. As a founder, I love when people ask questions, do their legal diligence, specify their compensation requirements up front so no one's time is wasted, ask about market challenges, and yes, even negotiate for a fair compensation if I haven't been paying attention and it turns out they're underpaid. (Sometimes I loathe having candidates go elsewhere because big-cos can offer them a higher salary, but if I can't sell them on the vision/culture, I always wish them well). What I cannot stand is people that are being jerks about it. The guy that opens the first five minutes of an interview with an antagonistic question about stock options before we even got through the first technical question. The smug guy that comes into our office and starts pointing out holes in our product/strategy barely after we said our hellos (I've only been working on the company for two years, don't you think I thought of that?). The gal that can't program her way out of a for loop, and claims to everyone who's willing to listen she's being discriminated against. Believe it or not, not everyone is out to get you. Some people are genuinely trying to do good work, have everyone well compensated with equity, and pay fair salaries while not running out of cash too early. If you're unhappy with the compensation, nobody will fault you if you leave for greener pastures. It's the smug, antagonistic, cynical jerks that everyone hates.

calibraxis 15y ago
I've met my fair share of founder jerks. Whether or not you and I are jerks is immaterial to the fact that when haggling over money, each side is in an antagonistic relationship. Each is rewarded for extracting virtually as much as they can from the other. (Personally, I think it's an absurd system.) And I don't know about you, but I do know a gal who CAN "program her way out of a for loop" — I've seen her do it, such females actually exist — and if you're a decent listener, they may do you the favor of telling you about the extra crap they face due to men's kooky gender ideologies. Anyway that said, I agree you can hack somewhat better pay out of a manager by handling them properly. Much of their professional world is social, so they are extra-sensitive to social cues. And software developers at this moment have far stronger bargaining positions than many other workers. Among the advice that helped me (but YMMV): * Reading _Getting to Yes_. There are alternatives to domination and passivity. * Asking more than their highest range — if they negotiate me down, I did something right. * Building my bargaining position by: increasing my relevant knowledge/ability, being a good presenter and listener/talker, overkilling the technical puzzles which you can do at home, and being able to walk away from a given deal. AI prof Patrick Winston has helpful tips on giving presentations: (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9F536001A3C605FC http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9F536001A3C605FC) * Note that the initial hiring decision is when the market transaction is made. If you get it right, having brought your forces to bear on it, it's out of the way. (David Graber's _Debt: The First 5000 Years_ has some interesting words on this phenomenon.) Of course, the goal depends on whether you're negotiating with a wealthy firm, a cash-strapped startup, or a social justice organization.

wisty 15y ago

Well, you are being a bit of a jerk. It's justified in some circumstances (like, when the CEO is also being a bit of a jerk, which sounds like it's the case), but you still come across as very hardnosed. The difference is, a girl who asks for a decent salary, rather than the first offer is often seen as being just as hardnosed as the guy who asks for a much higher salary, and stock options, then demands a big raise every time he's on critical path. Being seen as hardnosed is not a good thing if you're not getting paid for it. It's kind of like how guys who don't shower will be seen as unprofessional, but possibly brilliant; while girls who don't shower are just seen as unprofessional.