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I read "Women Don't Ask" and "Ask For It" in the past couple of years. I proceeded to try to ask for things, like being named the tech lead, a promotion, or ju

I read "Women Don't Ask" and "Ask For It" in the past couple of years. I proceeded to try to ask for things, like being named the tech lead, a promotion, or just more money. It did not help. In fact, I think it may have gotten me branded as bitchy for attempting to break out of the mold instead of "knowing my place". A lot of that was probably a function of where I was working, but this goes on at other places as well. Part of the problem is that a lot of well-meaning individuals just don't believe this is actually happening. I can see how they might think that if they had never been in a position of having it happen to them. If you find yourself doubting this happens, do this: ask ten women you know if they had ever negotiated for something, and what happened when they did. Then draw your own conclusions.

fleitz 15y ago
Even as a man negotiating can have preprocussions, I've had my access to sales data revoked (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when you put dev milestones next to sales increases), been accused of blackmail (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when they offer you a vacation and you ask for a raise), accused of lowering employee moral (thanks for turning down my request for a raise, I decided to become a team player and get my team raises, sorry that cost you three times what i was asking for), etc. All because I was a programmer who wanted money instead of free sodas, and worthless stock options. I could ask tough questions about stock option grants, as well as speak convincingly to other employees about the pay structure and the EV of the options. When they give you some BS about the stock being worth X ask them about liquidity events. Yeah, it's great that you want to turn this biz into a billion dollar company but when that horizon is after the options expire it means the options are worthless. (It's best to ask these questions on separate occasions so the CEO is unaware of the play) As a college dropout I sure don't 'know my place' and I really don't care to take the place society has designated my class. Sure, some people think I'm self-centered but fundamentally you go to work to earn money. If the team can't make sacrifices for me then I don't care to make sacrifices for it. As an employee I invest my time, and I expect a liquidity preference, just like the company's VCs do. A VC can always get their money back from some other source, I can never get my time back. In the words of Ray Liotta in Good Fellas: Fuck you, pay me!
- natrius 15y ago
  "I've had my access to sales data revoked (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when you put dev milestones next to sales increases)" Giant red flag. If someone's wiling to hide information that helps you do your job in order to minimize your credit, something is horribly wrong.
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- sneak 15y ago
  > In the words of Ray Liotta in Good Fellas: Fuck you, pay me! I always ask new clients if they've seen Goodfellas.
- coffeemug 15y ago
  I run a startup, so I'm on the other side of the fence, but to me it sounds like you've encountered repercussions because of your attitude. As a founder, I love when people ask questions, do their legal diligence, specify their compensation requirements up front so no one's time is wasted, ask about market challenges, and yes, even negotiate for a fair compensation if I haven't been paying attention and it turns out they're underpaid. (Sometimes I loathe having candidates go elsewhere because big-cos can offer them a higher salary, but if I can't sell them on the vision/culture, I always wish them well). What I cannot stand is people that are being jerks about it. The guy that opens the first five minutes of an interview with an antagonistic question about stock options before we even got through the first technical question. The smug guy that comes into our office and starts pointing out holes in our product/strategy barely after we said our hellos (I've only been working on the company for two years, don't you think I thought of that?). The gal that can't program her way out of a for loop, and claims to everyone who's willing to listen she's being discriminated against. Believe it or not, not everyone is out to get you. Some people are genuinely trying to do good work, have everyone well compensated with equity, and pay fair salaries while not running out of cash too early. If you're unhappy with the compensation, nobody will fault you if you leave for greener pastures. It's the smug, antagonistic, cynical jerks that everyone hates.
arkitaip 15y ago
Were you able to practice your delivery on some colleagues in the business? Because the way we communicate negotiation strikes me as absolutely crucial in not coming of as aggressive. Not that I don't believe you when you say that there's a double standard wrt the kind of negotiation behavior is accepted from men and women.
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- rachelbythebay 15y ago
  I can't say I was able to really practice this stuff. Here's one thing which did happen, though: while describing a particular failure, I said "<name> and <name> dropped the ball on this one". One of the guys on my team really objected to that. He didn't like hearing it from me. I thought for a second and said, "hey, wait, you don't react like that when <guy in area> says the same thing". He just got really quiet and never really addressed the issue. I tried again: "How is it that the same words coming out of my mouth are bad when they were just fine coming out of the mouth of some man? What year is this again?" I find that's what tends to happen: they get quiet and mentally set some bit on me that means "evil bitch".
  - chc 15y ago
    Outright accusing people of sexism absolutely will make them shut off to you. So will accusing them of puppy-kicking and any number of other things where they don't want to think of themselves as That Kind Of Person (even if they really do act that way sometimes) — but sexism is particularly volatile because there's an implicit threat of a lawsuit on top of the moral judgment. It's one of those things where, if somebody accuses you, it's probably in your interest to avoid contact with them. I'd recommend reading up on the topic of persuading people if you feel shaky. "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a pretty good classic starter. How you approach this kind of stuff can make all the difference in the world. (And I'm not saying that they weren't unfairly discriminating against you. But there are good ways and less-good ways to address that situation, and picking a fight should usually be a last resort IMO.)
jdp23 15y ago
Totally agreed about asking ten women about their experiences -- with the caveat that you need to do it in a way that they'll be comfortable enough to be honest with you. It can be really eye-opening. Unfortunately as you say, in many situations becoming a better negotiator doesn't help. In the long term, the key is to find companies, managers, and colleagues who 'are' aware of these issues and work to do the right thing. Alas, that's easier said than done.
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mjdwitt 15y ago
Honest question: did you notice any differences between the reactions of your male coworkers vs. the reactions of your female coworkers? I've noticed while watching my sisters and various girlfriends interact with other women that women seem to be faster to label each other negatively than most men I know would label other men negatively. Perhaps, however, I just hang out with mean women.
- rachelbythebay 15y ago
  I didn't have any female coworkers. I was at Google for four and a half years and none of my three teams had any "diversity" beyond myself. Team #1 was a production service SRE team, while #2 and #3 were development/SWE roles. I had to go up and out to talk to people on other teams. We wound up forming a little group of women in operations (think pager duty) and talked about these things. We all noticed a bunch of similar problems but I can't say I ever got any solutions out of it.
GavinB 15y ago
I'm not in any way suggesting that what's going on here isn't exactly the problem diagnosed in the article. It's very real--I've seen it, probably benefited from it, and undoubtedly perpetrate it at some point as well. I've actually followed through this process with several female colleagues and the conclusion I've come to is that in most cases, male or female, the only way you're going to get ahead is to have another option. It short circuits the "bitch" reaction if you're saying that you want to stay but this other great opportunity has come along. You generally don't want to ask for something unless you have a credible BATNA ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiated_agreement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiate... ) It doesn't matter whether the boss you're negotiating with is male or female or is thinking you're a "bitch" or not--they're not going to give you much unless you have some sort of leverage. (The difference, of course, is that the man is less likely to face the same negative consequences for asking and being denied.) In many cases, even if your boss wants to give you something, he or she may not be able to do so without you having some sort of leverage.
paganel 15y ago
> I can see how they might think that if they had never been in a position of having it happen to them. If you find yourself doubting this happens, do this: ask ten women you know if they had ever negotiated for something, and what happened when they did. Then draw your own conclusions. I never negotiated for something work-related, and I'm a man, I've been in the workforce for the last 10 years. My wife negotiates all the time, she works in procurement, it is her job. We've recently split, I left with nothing but the laptop on which I'm writing this comment, and she had to keep all the rest. Which brings me to part two, the unspoken elephant in the living-room, the fact that women will always be allowed to "win" the kids in a divorce, no matter how hard men will try to win them. I guess that's just compensation.
temphn 15y ago
There are other dimensions to life besides the purely economic. In the social sphere, men are the ones who need to approach and women are the ones with all the options. It's weird that this is not considered, as the point for many (most?) men of earning money is to attract female companionship.
dasil003 15y ago
Another part of the problem is that you're fighting against cultural norms. People feel more uncomfortable turning down a woman than they do turning down a man. The whole thing is unspoken and runs deep. Talking about it is worth something I guess, but it's going to take a lot of women putting themselves out there (and being punished for it) over time in order to move the bar.

fleitz 15y ago

Even as a man negotiating can have preprocussions, I've had my access to sales data revoked (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when you put dev milestones next to sales increases), been accused of blackmail (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when they offer you a vacation and you ask for a raise), accused of lowering employee moral (thanks for turning down my request for a raise, I decided to become a team player and get my team raises, sorry that cost you three times what i was asking for), etc. All because I was a programmer who wanted money instead of free sodas, and worthless stock options. I could ask tough questions about stock option grants, as well as speak convincingly to other employees about the pay structure and the EV of the options. When they give you some BS about the stock being worth X ask them about liquidity events. Yeah, it's great that you want to turn this biz into a billion dollar company but when that horizon is after the options expire it means the options are worthless. (It's best to ask these questions on separate occasions so the CEO is unaware of the play) As a college dropout I sure don't 'know my place' and I really don't care to take the place society has designated my class. Sure, some people think I'm self-centered but fundamentally you go to work to earn money. If the team can't make sacrifices for me then I don't care to make sacrifices for it. As an employee I invest my time, and I expect a liquidity preference, just like the company's VCs do. A VC can always get their money back from some other source, I can never get my time back. In the words of Ray Liotta in Good Fellas: Fuck you, pay me!

natrius 15y ago
"I've had my access to sales data revoked (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when you put dev milestones next to sales increases)" Giant red flag. If someone's wiling to hide information that helps you do your job in order to minimize your credit, something is horribly wrong.
- deleted 15y ago
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sneak 15y ago
> In the words of Ray Liotta in Good Fellas: Fuck you, pay me! I always ask new clients if they've seen Goodfellas.
coffeemug 15y ago
I run a startup, so I'm on the other side of the fence, but to me it sounds like you've encountered repercussions because of your attitude. As a founder, I love when people ask questions, do their legal diligence, specify their compensation requirements up front so no one's time is wasted, ask about market challenges, and yes, even negotiate for a fair compensation if I haven't been paying attention and it turns out they're underpaid. (Sometimes I loathe having candidates go elsewhere because big-cos can offer them a higher salary, but if I can't sell them on the vision/culture, I always wish them well). What I cannot stand is people that are being jerks about it. The guy that opens the first five minutes of an interview with an antagonistic question about stock options before we even got through the first technical question. The smug guy that comes into our office and starts pointing out holes in our product/strategy barely after we said our hellos (I've only been working on the company for two years, don't you think I thought of that?). The gal that can't program her way out of a for loop, and claims to everyone who's willing to listen she's being discriminated against. Believe it or not, not everyone is out to get you. Some people are genuinely trying to do good work, have everyone well compensated with equity, and pay fair salaries while not running out of cash too early. If you're unhappy with the compensation, nobody will fault you if you leave for greener pastures. It's the smug, antagonistic, cynical jerks that everyone hates.

arkitaip 15y ago

Were you able to practice your delivery on some colleagues in the business? Because the way we communicate negotiation strikes me as absolutely crucial in not coming of as aggressive. Not that I don't believe you when you say that there's a double standard wrt the kind of negotiation behavior is accepted from men and women.

deleted 15y ago
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rachelbythebay 15y ago
I can't say I was able to really practice this stuff. Here's one thing which did happen, though: while describing a particular failure, I said "<name> and <name> dropped the ball on this one". One of the guys on my team really objected to that. He didn't like hearing it from me. I thought for a second and said, "hey, wait, you don't react like that when <guy in area> says the same thing". He just got really quiet and never really addressed the issue. I tried again: "How is it that the same words coming out of my mouth are bad when they were just fine coming out of the mouth of some man? What year is this again?" I find that's what tends to happen: they get quiet and mentally set some bit on me that means "evil bitch".
- chc 15y ago
  Outright accusing people of sexism absolutely will make them shut off to you. So will accusing them of puppy-kicking and any number of other things where they don't want to think of themselves as That Kind Of Person (even if they really do act that way sometimes) — but sexism is particularly volatile because there's an implicit threat of a lawsuit on top of the moral judgment. It's one of those things where, if somebody accuses you, it's probably in your interest to avoid contact with them. I'd recommend reading up on the topic of persuading people if you feel shaky. "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a pretty good classic starter. How you approach this kind of stuff can make all the difference in the world. (And I'm not saying that they weren't unfairly discriminating against you. But there are good ways and less-good ways to address that situation, and picking a fight should usually be a last resort IMO.)

jdp23 15y ago

Totally agreed about asking ten women about their experiences -- with the caveat that you need to do it in a way that they'll be comfortable enough to be honest with you. It can be really eye-opening. Unfortunately as you say, in many situations becoming a better negotiator doesn't help. In the long term, the key is to find companies, managers, and colleagues who 'are' aware of these issues and work to do the right thing. Alas, that's easier said than done.

deleted 15y ago

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mjdwitt 15y ago

Honest question: did you notice any differences between the reactions of your male coworkers vs. the reactions of your female coworkers? I've noticed while watching my sisters and various girlfriends interact with other women that women seem to be faster to label each other negatively than most men I know would label other men negatively. Perhaps, however, I just hang out with mean women.

rachelbythebay 15y ago
I didn't have any female coworkers. I was at Google for four and a half years and none of my three teams had any "diversity" beyond myself. Team #1 was a production service SRE team, while #2 and #3 were development/SWE roles. I had to go up and out to talk to people on other teams. We wound up forming a little group of women in operations (think pager duty) and talked about these things. We all noticed a bunch of similar problems but I can't say I ever got any solutions out of it.

GavinB 15y ago

I'm not in any way suggesting that what's going on here isn't exactly the problem diagnosed in the article. It's very real--I've seen it, probably benefited from it, and undoubtedly perpetrate it at some point as well. I've actually followed through this process with several female colleagues and the conclusion I've come to is that in most cases, male or female, the only way you're going to get ahead is to have another option. It short circuits the "bitch" reaction if you're saying that you want to stay but this other great opportunity has come along. You generally don't want to ask for something unless you have a credible BATNA ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiated_agreement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiate... ) It doesn't matter whether the boss you're negotiating with is male or female or is thinking you're a "bitch" or not--they're not going to give you much unless you have some sort of leverage. (The difference, of course, is that the man is less likely to face the same negative consequences for asking and being denied.) In many cases, even if your boss wants to give you something, he or she may not be able to do so without you having some sort of leverage.

paganel 15y ago

> I can see how they might think that if they had never been in a position of having it happen to them. If you find yourself doubting this happens, do this: ask ten women you know if they had ever negotiated for something, and what happened when they did. Then draw your own conclusions. I never negotiated for something work-related, and I'm a man, I've been in the workforce for the last 10 years. My wife negotiates all the time, she works in procurement, it is her job. We've recently split, I left with nothing but the laptop on which I'm writing this comment, and she had to keep all the rest. Which brings me to part two, the unspoken elephant in the living-room, the fact that women will always be allowed to "win" the kids in a divorce, no matter how hard men will try to win them. I guess that's just compensation.

temphn 15y ago

There are other dimensions to life besides the purely economic. In the social sphere, men are the ones who need to approach and women are the ones with all the options. It's weird that this is not considered, as the point for many (most?) men of earning money is to attract female companionship.

dasil003 15y ago

Another part of the problem is that you're fighting against cultural norms. People feel more uncomfortable turning down a woman than they do turning down a man. The whole thing is unspoken and runs deep. Talking about it is worth something I guess, but it's going to take a lot of women putting themselves out there (and being punished for it) over time in order to move the bar.