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> An octopus is very closely related to you, far more so than any conceivable space aliens - and yet we have no idea what the fuck is going on in there. If oct

by enw 4y ago

> An octopus is very closely related to you, far more so than any conceivable space aliens - and yet we have no idea what the fuck is going on in there. If octopuses really are so closely related, why can't I see any sort of large structures or societies or vehicles or weapons created by them? They're a plateau'd species leeching off the planet barely surviving in the balance of nature, like pretty much every species except humans.

bckr 4y ago
> They're a plateau'd species leeching off the planet barely surviving in the balance of nature, like pretty much every species except humans. That is a ghost pepper spicy take. In what way does any species plateau? An extant species is either a) Going extinct, b) Well adapted to its environment, or c) Adapting to evolutionary pressures through natural selection. Instead of "leeching" I would describe them as living in symbiosis with their ecosystem. Instead of "barely surviving in the balance of nature" I would describe them as... well, surviving. And that against the onslaught of the Anthropocene. I like humanity as much as the next guy but your comment has a stunning degree of anthropocentrism.
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  I interpreted their comment a different way. They're raising a question I've always wondered... Why are humans the only species to have reached such an incredible level of intelligence relative to all the other species on the planet? Every other creature has plateaued in intelligence. Some are more intelligent than others, but have any of them even learned to create tools beyond bashing things with rocks and sticks? Have any learned to build things beyond a basic nest? None of them have even learned language beyond a few basic noises or bits of body language to express aggression, submission, and maybe happiness. The usual answer is "Humans are the only species where learning these gave an advantage", but I think that's hogwash. Imagine how much more successful a prey species could be if they had better ways to communicate that they spotted a predator nearby, or even what a predator looks like.
  - hnfong 4y ago
    > Why are humans the only species to have reached such an incredible level of intelligence relative to all the other species on the planet? Maybe they went extinct shortly after attaining similar technological levels as us, and we humans just presumed them (eg dinosaurs) to be stupid reptiles? In fact, given that homosapiens and our close relatives roamed the earth for hundreds of thousands of years, it’s quite a spooky question to ask why only in the past couple thousand years we’ve been able to build a technologically advanced civilization.
  - bckr 4y ago
    > Every other creature has plateaued in intelligence This is just not how evolution works. If you're curious about phenomena such as you're describing, I encourage you to dig into evolutionary biology. It's more correct to say "we don't know of any creatures living or extinct that have a similar development of linguistic / symbol manipulation as modern humans". This acknowledges that we don't know the intelligence of every species to have existed on earth. The earth is billions of years old. Quite literally, in that time span, species could have developed advanced civilizations, gone extinct, and left no evidence of themselves that we're currently capable of perceiving as such. It also acknowledges that, unlikely as it seems, we don't know of any living species with similar intelligence to us. Since that quickly descends into sci-fi territory, I'll leave it there. Finally, it acknowledges that at any point in the future, other creatures could evolve intelligence similar to us. It strikes me that my whole disagreement with you hinges on the word "plateaued". In common parlance this means "has developed to a point of permanent stagnation". In evolution nothing is Permanently stagnant, thus my previous comment. > "Humans are the only species where learning these gave an advantage" This is another point that a deeper dive into evolutionary studies will illuminate. Humans are the only extant species that we know of where selection pressure met a series of mutations for increased intelligence, and the cost/benefit equation worked out for the species and environment.
rileyphone 4y ago
Octopodes have short lifespans and aren't very social, otherwise I'm convinced they would have established civilization by now.

by enw 4y ago

bckr 4y ago

> They're a plateau'd species leeching off the planet barely surviving in the balance of nature, like pretty much every species except humans. That is a ghost pepper spicy take. In what way does any species plateau? An extant species is either a) Going extinct, b) Well adapted to its environment, or c) Adapting to evolutionary pressures through natural selection. Instead of "leeching" I would describe them as living in symbiosis with their ecosystem. Instead of "barely surviving in the balance of nature" I would describe them as... well, surviving. And that against the onslaught of the Anthropocene. I like humanity as much as the next guy but your comment has a stunning degree of anthropocentrism.

Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
I interpreted their comment a different way. They're raising a question I've always wondered... Why are humans the only species to have reached such an incredible level of intelligence relative to all the other species on the planet? Every other creature has plateaued in intelligence. Some are more intelligent than others, but have any of them even learned to create tools beyond bashing things with rocks and sticks? Have any learned to build things beyond a basic nest? None of them have even learned language beyond a few basic noises or bits of body language to express aggression, submission, and maybe happiness. The usual answer is "Humans are the only species where learning these gave an advantage", but I think that's hogwash. Imagine how much more successful a prey species could be if they had better ways to communicate that they spotted a predator nearby, or even what a predator looks like.
- hnfong 4y ago
  > Why are humans the only species to have reached such an incredible level of intelligence relative to all the other species on the planet? Maybe they went extinct shortly after attaining similar technological levels as us, and we humans just presumed them (eg dinosaurs) to be stupid reptiles? In fact, given that homosapiens and our close relatives roamed the earth for hundreds of thousands of years, it’s quite a spooky question to ask why only in the past couple thousand years we’ve been able to build a technologically advanced civilization.
- bckr 4y ago
  > Every other creature has plateaued in intelligence This is just not how evolution works. If you're curious about phenomena such as you're describing, I encourage you to dig into evolutionary biology. It's more correct to say "we don't know of any creatures living or extinct that have a similar development of linguistic / symbol manipulation as modern humans". This acknowledges that we don't know the intelligence of every species to have existed on earth. The earth is billions of years old. Quite literally, in that time span, species could have developed advanced civilizations, gone extinct, and left no evidence of themselves that we're currently capable of perceiving as such. It also acknowledges that, unlikely as it seems, we don't know of any living species with similar intelligence to us. Since that quickly descends into sci-fi territory, I'll leave it there. Finally, it acknowledges that at any point in the future, other creatures could evolve intelligence similar to us. It strikes me that my whole disagreement with you hinges on the word "plateaued". In common parlance this means "has developed to a point of permanent stagnation". In evolution nothing is Permanently stagnant, thus my previous comment. > "Humans are the only species where learning these gave an advantage" This is another point that a deeper dive into evolutionary studies will illuminate. Humans are the only extant species that we know of where selection pressure met a series of mutations for increased intelligence, and the cost/benefit equation worked out for the species and environment.

rileyphone 4y ago

Octopodes have short lifespans and aren't very social, otherwise I'm convinced they would have established civilization by now.