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From memory, EU used to have very strict laws against reverse engineering. Is that still the case today? I mean this whole thing is pretty much based on reverse

From memory, EU used to have very strict laws against reverse engineering. Is that still the case today? I mean this whole thing is pretty much based on reverse engineering the GPU.

fps_doug 4y ago
That's the US. EU is fine.
- SeanLuke 4y ago
  The US largely has laws against reverse engineering hardware for the purpose of circumventing copyright protection. But that's not happening here. What other laws were you thinking of?
  - fps_doug 4y ago
    AFAIU, in the US to be on the safe side, you need to apply clean room reverse engineering, no matter the goal. In the EU, as soon as it's in the name of interoperability, reverse engineering is fine: > The unauthorised reproduction, translation, adaptation or transformation of the form of the code in which a copy of a computer program has been made available constitutes an infringement of the exclusive rights of the author. Nevertheless, circumstances may exist when such a reproduction of the code and translation of its form are indispensable to obtain the necessary information to achieve the interoperability of an independently created program with other programs. It has therefore to be considered that, in these limited circumstances only, performance of the acts of reproduction and translation by or on behalf of a person having a right to use a copy of the program is legitimate and compatible with fair practice and must therefore be deemed not to require the authorisation of the rightholder. An objective of this exception is to make it possible to connect all components of a computer system, including those of different manufacturers, so that they can work together. Such an exception to the author's exclusive rights may not be used in a way which prejudices the legitimate interests of the rightholder or which conflicts with a normal exploitation of the program. Directive 2009/24/EC This would allow you to disassemble and modify any parts of OSX and its drivers in order to help write a Linux driver. Does the same apply in the US?
  - bitwize 4y ago
    The USA has fairly lax laws regarding reverse engineering. It's just that proprietary software EULAs typically forbid it -- and you have to agree to a binding EULA in order to use the software. There were a number of court cases, many involving game consoles (incl. Sega v. Accolade, Galoob v. Nintendo, Sony v. Connectix) that establish that as long as you're not distributing verbatim or other infringing copies of another company's work such as software or chip designs (and you haven't signed any contractual agreements otherwise), you're in the clear. To establish that you are in the clear, clean-room reverse engineering is the recommended approach: one party does the reverse engineering yielding a spec; the other implements the software based on the spec.
    - dis-sys 4y ago
      > one party does the reverse engineering yielding a spec; the other implements the software based on the spec. good to know that. asahi linux should be fine, the reverse engineering and driver development are done by different people.
      - bitwize 4y ago
        It helps that Apple is aware of this work and, while they aren't contributing, they're not actively hindering it either.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
pantalaimon 4y ago
They are based in Japan anyway
- andreasley 4y ago
  What makes you think that?
  - stirlo 4y ago
    - spyremeown 4y ago
      It's not him, though. https://nitter.tiekoetter.com/marcan42/status/1527129961706180608#m https://nitter.tiekoetter.com/marcan42/status/15271299617061...
      - zamadatix 4y ago
  - piperswe 4y ago
    The location on Asahi's GitHub profile: https://github.com/asahilina https://github.com/asahilina
p_l 4y ago
Not really. It's more US thing where a license can try to forbid Reverse Engineering, and you end up with things like clean room RE based on supreme court case. Meanwhile for example in Poland (EU member), it's illegal to forbid reverse engineering - any claim in a contract, license or not, that forbids such is null & void. Because the copyright law has a paragraph about how "reverse engineering is a right of everyone." - the only thing is that you can't just recompile reversed code and claim it's yours (that would be copyright violation).

From memory, EU used to have very strict laws against reverse engineering. Is that still the case today? I mean this whole thing is pretty much based on reverse engineering the GPU.

fps_doug 4y ago

That's the US. EU is fine.

SeanLuke 4y ago
The US largely has laws against reverse engineering hardware for the purpose of circumventing copyright protection. But that's not happening here. What other laws were you thinking of?
- fps_doug 4y ago
  AFAIU, in the US to be on the safe side, you need to apply clean room reverse engineering, no matter the goal. In the EU, as soon as it's in the name of interoperability, reverse engineering is fine: > The unauthorised reproduction, translation, adaptation or transformation of the form of the code in which a copy of a computer program has been made available constitutes an infringement of the exclusive rights of the author. Nevertheless, circumstances may exist when such a reproduction of the code and translation of its form are indispensable to obtain the necessary information to achieve the interoperability of an independently created program with other programs. It has therefore to be considered that, in these limited circumstances only, performance of the acts of reproduction and translation by or on behalf of a person having a right to use a copy of the program is legitimate and compatible with fair practice and must therefore be deemed not to require the authorisation of the rightholder. An objective of this exception is to make it possible to connect all components of a computer system, including those of different manufacturers, so that they can work together. Such an exception to the author's exclusive rights may not be used in a way which prejudices the legitimate interests of the rightholder or which conflicts with a normal exploitation of the program. Directive 2009/24/EC This would allow you to disassemble and modify any parts of OSX and its drivers in order to help write a Linux driver. Does the same apply in the US?
- bitwize 4y ago
  The USA has fairly lax laws regarding reverse engineering. It's just that proprietary software EULAs typically forbid it -- and you have to agree to a binding EULA in order to use the software. There were a number of court cases, many involving game consoles (incl. Sega v. Accolade, Galoob v. Nintendo, Sony v. Connectix) that establish that as long as you're not distributing verbatim or other infringing copies of another company's work such as software or chip designs (and you haven't signed any contractual agreements otherwise), you're in the clear. To establish that you are in the clear, clean-room reverse engineering is the recommended approach: one party does the reverse engineering yielding a spec; the other implements the software based on the spec.
  - dis-sys 4y ago
    > one party does the reverse engineering yielding a spec; the other implements the software based on the spec. good to know that. asahi linux should be fine, the reverse engineering and driver development are done by different people.
    - bitwize 4y ago
      It helps that Apple is aware of this work and, while they aren't contributing, they're not actively hindering it either.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

pantalaimon 4y ago

They are based in Japan anyway

andreasley 4y ago
What makes you think that?
- stirlo 4y ago
  - spyremeown 4y ago
    It's not him, though. https://nitter.tiekoetter.com/marcan42/status/1527129961706180608#m https://nitter.tiekoetter.com/marcan42/status/15271299617061...
    - zamadatix 4y ago
- piperswe 4y ago
  The location on Asahi's GitHub profile: https://github.com/asahilina https://github.com/asahilina

p_l 4y ago

Not really. It's more US thing where a license can try to forbid Reverse Engineering, and you end up with things like clean room RE based on supreme court case. Meanwhile for example in Poland (EU member), it's illegal to forbid reverse engineering - any claim in a contract, license or not, that forbids such is null & void. Because the copyright law has a paragraph about how "reverse engineering is a right of everyone." - the only thing is that you can't just recompile reversed code and claim it's yours (that would be copyright violation).