4 ms·

Because at the end of the day you need to obtain food, clothing, shelter and other necessities to even survive to the next day, not even mentioning doing anythi

by M4v3R 4y ago

Because at the end of the day you need to obtain food, clothing, shelter and other necessities to even survive to the next day, not even mentioning doing anything for pleasure. Either through labor of your own, or by doing labor to earn money to buy these for you possibly your family. Thinking that "human beings are born worthy of a happy peaceful safe life" is childish - the world doesn't owe us anything, and if we want to continue living on it we have to earn it.

neoromantique 4y ago
It is getting increasingly easier to provide these essentials as time goes on, so why is it unimaginable that there might be a day when those are default, and not something that you need labour for?
- generalizations 4y ago
  Yes, it's increasingly easier. The ratio of (people consuming) / (people producing) has been growing massively. However, it's impossible for (people producing) to reach zero. And, unless (people producing) = 0, there will always be a cost to the goods produced, and (people consuming) has to pay that.
trial3 4y ago
this approach, to me, feels even more childish and lacking in nuance than “human beings are born worthy of a happy peaceful safe life” the “world” may not owe anyone anything, but do we as individuals, groups, tribes, governments, and a species owe each other some attempt at that? how does this view extend into discussions about marginalized, disabled, the idea of social safety nets?
snowwrestler 4y ago
It’s a challenging time in human history because we’re now capable of producing enough food, clothing, shelter, and other necessities for every human on Earth. That will only get more true as population growth slows while innovation continues to drive productivity improvements. But we’re still culturally in the mindset you’re describing: that we must each individually wrest life out of the wilderness day by day. As a result we seem to be inventing more and more complex and bizarre ways of forcing that reality to still exist. Like pointless YouTube challenge videos done solely to provide ad inventory so well-off people can sell things to other well-off people.
- itsyaboi 4y ago
  >we’re now capable of producing enough food, clothing, shelter, and other necessities for every human on Earth This should come with a footnote that it's only possible due to slave labor in third world countries. A much smaller subset of people would be buying iPhones if they were $5000.
  - blep_ 4y ago
    iPhones are not food, clothing, or shelter.
    - itsyaboi 4y ago
      Many would consider them an "other necessity", if we're being pedantic.
- Orothrim 4y ago
  We aren't inventing more and more complex ways of forcing that reality to still exist. That reality does still exist, it's close to not existing, maybe only another 300-400 years, but it's still 100% true right now. You are ignoring the massive logistical challenge of getting all those things to all those people and spreading all that knowledge to get production happening. Additionally, our current system is built on a 100 leaning towers of pisa. Look at Ukraine, it gets invaded and our global supply of food is massively impacted, many people are going to starve and freeze to death over the war in Ukraine this winter who have never set foot in Ukraine or Russia.
- giantg2 4y ago
  "It’s a challenging time in human history because we’re now capable of producing enough food, clothing, shelter, and other necessities for every human on Earth." But that's only true with incentive to work. Their point wasn't anything to do with wilderness. It was if you had your needs met without the requirement of work, that a significant portion of people would not work. Without those workers, we would no long have enough production.
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
wruza 4y ago
There is no shortage of ways to devalue labor though. We all know people who work and would be not rich but prosperous enough, if not the economy system they live in held them hostage. Arguing that income disparity is their fault is neither humane nor logical. Childish is an expectation that people must spend their childhood, teen age or adult mental health on learning hard how to dig themselves out of a pit that they never had a choice not to be born into, when your favorite system at some point makes it adequate for them to present you a knife and to ask for your wallet to just survive, or to participate in a humiliating activity if they have no courage to do the former. It’s up to us to decide how it all should work, not to some trivial natural limitations.
bestcoder69 4y ago
> Thinking that "human beings are born worthy of a happy peaceful safe life" is childish - the world doesn't owe us anything, and if we want to continue living on it we have to earn it. That's just, like, your opinion, man. But, IRL there are plenty of people that require care-taking, who we never expect any labor from.
- bryan_w 4y ago
  Isn't that survivorship bias? There are plenty of people that required care-taking and died of exposure. It seems there's a capacity limit to the safety net and if you go over it, starvation ensues.

by M4v3R 4y ago

neoromantique 4y ago

It is getting increasingly easier to provide these essentials as time goes on, so why is it unimaginable that there might be a day when those are default, and not something that you need labour for?

generalizations 4y ago
Yes, it's increasingly easier. The ratio of (people consuming) / (people producing) has been growing massively. However, it's impossible for (people producing) to reach zero. And, unless (people producing) = 0, there will always be a cost to the goods produced, and (people consuming) has to pay that.

trial3 4y ago

this approach, to me, feels even more childish and lacking in nuance than “human beings are born worthy of a happy peaceful safe life” the “world” may not owe anyone anything, but do we as individuals, groups, tribes, governments, and a species owe each other some attempt at that? how does this view extend into discussions about marginalized, disabled, the idea of social safety nets?

snowwrestler 4y ago

It’s a challenging time in human history because we’re now capable of producing enough food, clothing, shelter, and other necessities for every human on Earth. That will only get more true as population growth slows while innovation continues to drive productivity improvements. But we’re still culturally in the mindset you’re describing: that we must each individually wrest life out of the wilderness day by day. As a result we seem to be inventing more and more complex and bizarre ways of forcing that reality to still exist. Like pointless YouTube challenge videos done solely to provide ad inventory so well-off people can sell things to other well-off people.

itsyaboi 4y ago
>we’re now capable of producing enough food, clothing, shelter, and other necessities for every human on Earth This should come with a footnote that it's only possible due to slave labor in third world countries. A much smaller subset of people would be buying iPhones if they were $5000.
- blep_ 4y ago
  iPhones are not food, clothing, or shelter.
  - itsyaboi 4y ago
    Many would consider them an "other necessity", if we're being pedantic.
Orothrim 4y ago
We aren't inventing more and more complex ways of forcing that reality to still exist. That reality does still exist, it's close to not existing, maybe only another 300-400 years, but it's still 100% true right now. You are ignoring the massive logistical challenge of getting all those things to all those people and spreading all that knowledge to get production happening. Additionally, our current system is built on a 100 leaning towers of pisa. Look at Ukraine, it gets invaded and our global supply of food is massively impacted, many people are going to starve and freeze to death over the war in Ukraine this winter who have never set foot in Ukraine or Russia.
giantg2 4y ago
"It’s a challenging time in human history because we’re now capable of producing enough food, clothing, shelter, and other necessities for every human on Earth." But that's only true with incentive to work. Their point wasn't anything to do with wilderness. It was if you had your needs met without the requirement of work, that a significant portion of people would not work. Without those workers, we would no long have enough production.
Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago

wruza 4y ago

There is no shortage of ways to devalue labor though. We all know people who work and would be not rich but prosperous enough, if not the economy system they live in held them hostage. Arguing that income disparity is their fault is neither humane nor logical. Childish is an expectation that people must spend their childhood, teen age or adult mental health on learning hard how to dig themselves out of a pit that they never had a choice not to be born into, when your favorite system at some point makes it adequate for them to present you a knife and to ask for your wallet to just survive, or to participate in a humiliating activity if they have no courage to do the former. It’s up to us to decide how it all should work, not to some trivial natural limitations.

bestcoder69 4y ago

> Thinking that "human beings are born worthy of a happy peaceful safe life" is childish - the world doesn't owe us anything, and if we want to continue living on it we have to earn it. That's just, like, your opinion, man. But, IRL there are plenty of people that require care-taking, who we never expect any labor from.

bryan_w 4y ago
Isn't that survivorship bias? There are plenty of people that required care-taking and died of exposure. It seems there's a capacity limit to the safety net and if you go over it, starvation ensues.