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You really can't at that point. You'd just be showing them that if they bring out the nuclear weapons, everyone else will just fold. Say Putin nukes Ukraine (o

You really can't at that point. You'd just be showing them that if they bring out the nuclear weapons, everyone else will just fold. Say Putin nukes Ukraine (or fires a "demonstration" shot). If NATO stood down and just abandoned Ukraine as a response, or had them do appeasement style relinquishment of territory, or lifted sanctions, what stops Putin from pulling the nukes out the next time he wants something?

sio8ohPi 4y ago
The relevant Yes Minister: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o861Ka9TtT4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o861Ka9TtT4 "Will you press the button if they invade West Berlin?"
anticodon 4y ago
[flagged]
- axiolite 4y ago
  > This is why we don't bomb Ukranian cities Ukranian cities are absolutely being leveled by Russian munitions. > or cut the Ukranian gas pipeline (which is the only source of reliable income for Ukraine for all 30 years of its existence). The pipelines are the biggest source of money into Russia as well. Russia has tried to go around Ukraine with the NordStream2 pipeline, but NATO countries stalled that for years precisely because they didn't want to let Russia cut Ukraine out.
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    >> This is why we don't bomb Ukranian cities >Ukranian cities are absolutely being leveled by Russian munitions. It's at least interesting to see first hand how deeply delusional and deceived about reality so many Russian citizens act, that they could make such blatantly false easily disproven claims that fly in the face of the harsh undeniable reality and indisputable objective evidence that Putin has been bombing Ukrainian cities into the ground and mass murdering civilians. It makes me wonder if they're willingly in on the lies and supporting and spreading them well knowing they're false out of a misguided sense of patriotism and loyalty to Putin (or simply fear and desperation?), the same way Trump supporters are LARPing by denying he lost the election and making contradictory claims like FBI planted evidence that Trump telepathically declassified anyway, when they know quite well that's a bald faced lie, or if they're actually as naive and gullible and easily deceived as they're acting. Who do they actually think they're fooling by parroting ridiculous mendacious lies like "This is why we don't bomb Ukranian cities", if not only themselves?
    - microtonal 4y ago
      It's at least interesting to see first hand how deeply delusional and deceived about reality so many Russian citizens act Or they could be a paid troll? Most of their comment history consists of pro-Russian, anti-Western rants, with only a few tech-related things in between.
  - vixen99 4y ago
    Yes. This is so important it's worth repetition. 'This is why we don't bomb Ukranian cities' is an untrue statement - among others. It isn't Western propaganda. As you put it 'Ukranian cities are absolutely being leveled by Russian munitions.'
    - anticodon 4y ago
      - DonHopkins 4y ago
        You said "This is why we don't bomb Ukranian cities". That was a lie. Oh now you're moving the goalposts and trying to redefine what you said and divert the discussion. But what you said of your own free will (or is somebody holding a gun to your head?) is up there in black and tan for everyone to read, and even if you ninja edit your own words, you've been quoted enough times that nobody's going to forget what you said. Your claim that "you can't win otherwise" when you unilaterally attack a sovereign country actually means that you should not unilaterally attack a sovereign country, not that Putin didn't bomb Ukrainian cities. It doesn't prove your lie, it just proves how inhumane and aggressive you are. If you can't win otherwise, then you should just fucking well lose, instead of unilaterally starting a war, bombing cities, and killing innocent civilians, then mendaciously lying about it, because you should not have attacked The Ukraine in the first place. Then you wouldn't need to lie about it, huh? Your rebuttal that "The cities where the actual war is going on. Not all the cities..." is bullshit because Russia brought the war to them. The cities that PUTIN UNILATERALLY ATTACKED are being bombed. Not bombing some cities doesn't justify bombing others, or invading a sovereign nation. Putin DID bomb Ukrainian cities. And you said he didn't. So you LIED. Not just a little white lie. A huge mendacious lie that attempts to justify and cover up war crimes. That makes you complicit.
  - anticodon 4y ago
  - Shadowed_ 4y ago
    I even heard people who support Russia claiming that Ukrainians bombarded/shelled their own cities...
- ptidhomme 4y ago
  > "This is why we don't bomb Ukranian cities or cut the Ukranian gas pipeline (which is the only source of reliable income for Ukraine for all 30 years of its existence)." This simple fact, and what it tells about what Ukraine means to Russia, never gets to western ears for some reason.
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    Then please explain how it is that the indisputable fact that Putin IS bombing Ukrainian cities never got to your ears? Is your indefensible conspiracy theory that these are all deep faked videos? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvi7QFJYv_k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvi7QFJYv_k >Ukrainian cities bombed: Russian strikes spread from east to west >Russian strikes hit the capital, Kyiv, and Kharkiv and Kramatorsk in the east, causing deaths, Ukrainian officials say. Missiles destroy an aircraft repair plant near the airport in the western Ukrainian city of Lviv, Mayor Andriy Sadovy says. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e42F1V3AOq4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e42F1V3AOq4 >Russia accused of using cluster bombs as fighting rages in Ukraine’s cities - BBC News >Heavy fighting has taken place in several cities across Ukraine. >Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second city, has seen some of the fiercest battles with Russian forces accused of using cluster munitions. Many civilians are reported to have been killed. >Thousands more people have been trying to flee the country, adding to a growing refugee crisis. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uuoo3wm69U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uuoo3wm69U >Russia continues to shell newly-liberated city after Ukraine's counter-offensive – BBC News >Ukraine's counter-offensive in the northern Kharkiv region has put the Kremlin on the back foot, Western analysts and politicians have said. >This is said to explain President Vladimir Putin's mobilisation announcement, which could see 300,000 Russian’s summoned to serve in the war. >The Ukrainian military is now trying to consolidate those recent gains. >However, the city of Kupiansk, which was recently taken back from the Russians, is still coming under attack. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTgiVwRLx-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTgiVwRLx-g >Russia intensifies bombardment of Ukrainian cities >Russian forces are setting their sights on the capital city of Kyiv, advancing to the doorstep of the city. Satellite images show Russian artillery bombarding Kyiv as fierce fighting continues in many other parts of the country. Cities in eastern and southern Ukraine are under a sustained Russian onslaught. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-isnt-naive-zelenskiy-says-after-russia-pledges-scale-down-attack-kyiv-2022-03-30/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-isnt-naive-zele... >Russia bombs Ukraine cities, despite pledge to pull back from Kyiv >MALA ROHAN/NEAR IRPIN, Ukraine, March 30 (Reuters) - Russian forces bombarded the outskirts of Kyiv and a besieged city in northern Ukraine on Wednesday after promising to reduce attacks there in what the West dismissed as a ploy by Moscow to stem its heavy losses and regroup for other offensives. https://www.ft.com/content/e51014c3-0b97-4a3d-8a19-bc49b3ccd042 https://www.ft.com/content/e51014c3-0b97-4a3d-8a19-bc49b3ccd... Russia steps up bombardment of Ukraine’s biggest cities >Vladimir Putin’s forces adopt more aggressive tactics in bid to regain momentum on sixth day of invasion >Russia stepped up its bombardment of Ukraine’s biggest cities, firing missiles on targets in populated areas as Vladimir Putin’s forces turned to more brutal military tactics in a bid to regain momentum on the sixth day of the invasion. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/russia-widens-attack-with-airstrikes-on-western-ukraine-cities https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/russia-widens-... >Russia widens attack with airstrikes on western Ukraine cities >Airfields far from the main areas of war hit, while convoy near Kyiv seems to have dispersed into firing positions
- watwut 4y ago
  Yes that is how Russians excuse genocide and annexation they are committing. That does not make it true. The ideology you describe here is in fact definition of genocide - attempt to destroy Ukraine into not-existing. > This is why we don't bomb Ukranian cities It is well documented. You did destroyed multiple Ukrainian cities. You did tortured and committed massacres. Your soldiers rape kids, women, old. > We understand that they're people pumped by the Nazi propaganda to be used by the West to attack Russia, because NATO and/or USA are too afraid to attack Russia directly. No you dont. The right wing neonazi groups are strong in Russia.
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > You show that everything you know about Russia and Ukraine is from western propaganda. I find it hard to believe that everything we see is western propaganda. One of the reasons for this is that the Russian propagandists on TV proudly boast about committing genocide, are the Russian tv shows western propaganda now?. Are the videos of the Russian tanks firing on fleeing civilians Western propaganda ? Are the multiple independent reports that show Russia is committing atrocities such as raping and torturing adults and children in Ukraine western propaganda?. Are the mass graves in multiple Ukrainian cities Western propaganda?.
  - anticodon 4y ago
    > Are the multiple independent reports that show Russia is committing atrocities such as raping and torturing adults and children in Ukraine western propaganda?. Well, lots of them definitely are fake. Ukraine government had even to fire one of its propagandists because she started creating such an absurd fakes about rapes that nobody could believe this and it undermined the influence of Ukranian propaganda. Her name was Ludmila Denisova.
    - _kbh_ 4y ago
      We can ignore any claims from Ukraine itself if you want because a independent report by the UN says the same thing. https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/09/update-chair-independent-international-commission-inquiry-ukraine-51st-session https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/09/update-chair-ind... ill quote it for you. "The Commission has documented cases in which children have been raped, tortured, and unlawfully confined. Children have also been killed and injured in indiscriminate attacks with explosive weapons. The exposure to repeated explosions, crimes, forced displacement and separation from family members deeply affected their well-being and mental health.".
- lame-robot-hoax 4y ago
  I’m not sure how to even respond to something as deluded as this. Quite evidently Ukrainians do not believe themselves to be Russian, are actively resisting Russian occupation, and will continue to until they fully push the incompetent Russian military off their land or Russia strikes a peace deal. Ukrainian cities and apartment complexes have very much been struck by Russian cruise missiles and artillery. Russia has destroyed Ukrainian dams and power plants. Truth be told, no one cares what you think in Russia. Ukrainians don’t see themselves as Russian, they see themselves as a separate people, and they will continue to be one since Russia is incapable of fielding a competent army. If 16 or so HIMARS are so capable of destroying Russian ammo depots, why would the US be scared of Russia when they have 380 or so HIMARS in possession? Not to mention the US Air Force and Navy is so far beyond their Russian equivalents it’s like comparing an MMA fighter to a 5 year old child at karate for the first time. Russia hasn’t even deployed Su-57s or T-14s because they largely do not exist outside of useless prototypes. The US has 300+ F-35s and 180+ F-22s that are leaps and bounds better than anything Russia is flying, not to mention the fuck ton of F-15s and F-16s still in use. And that’s just the USA. Fold the entirety of NATO into the equation and it’s obvious the Russian military does not hold the faintest thread to the US or NATO as a whole. Poland would crush Russia 1v1. The only thing Russia has going for it is nukes. Without them, it’s just a corrupt, broken, weak regional power. That’s really all it is with them.
  - anticodon 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - DonHopkins 4y ago
      [flagged]
- lm28469 4y ago
  > This is why we don't bomb Ukranian cities You sure about that one ?
lm28469 4y ago
> what stops Putin from pulling the nukes out the next time he wants something? Article 5

sio8ohPi 4y ago

The relevant Yes Minister: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o861Ka9TtT4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o861Ka9TtT4 "Will you press the button if they invade West Berlin?"

anticodon 4y ago

[flagged]

axiolite 4y ago
> This is why we don't bomb Ukranian cities Ukranian cities are absolutely being leveled by Russian munitions. > or cut the Ukranian gas pipeline (which is the only source of reliable income for Ukraine for all 30 years of its existence). The pipelines are the biggest source of money into Russia as well. Russia has tried to go around Ukraine with the NordStream2 pipeline, but NATO countries stalled that for years precisely because they didn't want to let Russia cut Ukraine out.
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  >> This is why we don't bomb Ukranian cities >Ukranian cities are absolutely being leveled by Russian munitions. It's at least interesting to see first hand how deeply delusional and deceived about reality so many Russian citizens act, that they could make such blatantly false easily disproven claims that fly in the face of the harsh undeniable reality and indisputable objective evidence that Putin has been bombing Ukrainian cities into the ground and mass murdering civilians. It makes me wonder if they're willingly in on the lies and supporting and spreading them well knowing they're false out of a misguided sense of patriotism and loyalty to Putin (or simply fear and desperation?), the same way Trump supporters are LARPing by denying he lost the election and making contradictory claims like FBI planted evidence that Trump telepathically declassified anyway, when they know quite well that's a bald faced lie, or if they're actually as naive and gullible and easily deceived as they're acting. Who do they actually think they're fooling by parroting ridiculous mendacious lies like "This is why we don't bomb Ukranian cities", if not only themselves?
  - microtonal 4y ago
    It's at least interesting to see first hand how deeply delusional and deceived about reality so many Russian citizens act Or they could be a paid troll? Most of their comment history consists of pro-Russian, anti-Western rants, with only a few tech-related things in between.
- vixen99 4y ago
  Yes. This is so important it's worth repetition. 'This is why we don't bomb Ukranian cities' is an untrue statement - among others. It isn't Western propaganda. As you put it 'Ukranian cities are absolutely being leveled by Russian munitions.'
  - anticodon 4y ago
    - DonHopkins 4y ago
      You said "This is why we don't bomb Ukranian cities". That was a lie. Oh now you're moving the goalposts and trying to redefine what you said and divert the discussion. But what you said of your own free will (or is somebody holding a gun to your head?) is up there in black and tan for everyone to read, and even if you ninja edit your own words, you've been quoted enough times that nobody's going to forget what you said. Your claim that "you can't win otherwise" when you unilaterally attack a sovereign country actually means that you should not unilaterally attack a sovereign country, not that Putin didn't bomb Ukrainian cities. It doesn't prove your lie, it just proves how inhumane and aggressive you are. If you can't win otherwise, then you should just fucking well lose, instead of unilaterally starting a war, bombing cities, and killing innocent civilians, then mendaciously lying about it, because you should not have attacked The Ukraine in the first place. Then you wouldn't need to lie about it, huh? Your rebuttal that "The cities where the actual war is going on. Not all the cities..." is bullshit because Russia brought the war to them. The cities that PUTIN UNILATERALLY ATTACKED are being bombed. Not bombing some cities doesn't justify bombing others, or invading a sovereign nation. Putin DID bomb Ukrainian cities. And you said he didn't. So you LIED. Not just a little white lie. A huge mendacious lie that attempts to justify and cover up war crimes. That makes you complicit.
- anticodon 4y ago
- Shadowed_ 4y ago
  I even heard people who support Russia claiming that Ukrainians bombarded/shelled their own cities...
ptidhomme 4y ago
> "This is why we don't bomb Ukranian cities or cut the Ukranian gas pipeline (which is the only source of reliable income for Ukraine for all 30 years of its existence)." This simple fact, and what it tells about what Ukraine means to Russia, never gets to western ears for some reason.
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  Then please explain how it is that the indisputable fact that Putin IS bombing Ukrainian cities never got to your ears? Is your indefensible conspiracy theory that these are all deep faked videos? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvi7QFJYv_k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvi7QFJYv_k >Ukrainian cities bombed: Russian strikes spread from east to west >Russian strikes hit the capital, Kyiv, and Kharkiv and Kramatorsk in the east, causing deaths, Ukrainian officials say. Missiles destroy an aircraft repair plant near the airport in the western Ukrainian city of Lviv, Mayor Andriy Sadovy says. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e42F1V3AOq4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e42F1V3AOq4 >Russia accused of using cluster bombs as fighting rages in Ukraine’s cities - BBC News >Heavy fighting has taken place in several cities across Ukraine. >Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second city, has seen some of the fiercest battles with Russian forces accused of using cluster munitions. Many civilians are reported to have been killed. >Thousands more people have been trying to flee the country, adding to a growing refugee crisis. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uuoo3wm69U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uuoo3wm69U >Russia continues to shell newly-liberated city after Ukraine's counter-offensive – BBC News >Ukraine's counter-offensive in the northern Kharkiv region has put the Kremlin on the back foot, Western analysts and politicians have said. >This is said to explain President Vladimir Putin's mobilisation announcement, which could see 300,000 Russian’s summoned to serve in the war. >The Ukrainian military is now trying to consolidate those recent gains. >However, the city of Kupiansk, which was recently taken back from the Russians, is still coming under attack. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTgiVwRLx-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTgiVwRLx-g >Russia intensifies bombardment of Ukrainian cities >Russian forces are setting their sights on the capital city of Kyiv, advancing to the doorstep of the city. Satellite images show Russian artillery bombarding Kyiv as fierce fighting continues in many other parts of the country. Cities in eastern and southern Ukraine are under a sustained Russian onslaught. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-isnt-naive-zelenskiy-says-after-russia-pledges-scale-down-attack-kyiv-2022-03-30/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-isnt-naive-zele... >Russia bombs Ukraine cities, despite pledge to pull back from Kyiv >MALA ROHAN/NEAR IRPIN, Ukraine, March 30 (Reuters) - Russian forces bombarded the outskirts of Kyiv and a besieged city in northern Ukraine on Wednesday after promising to reduce attacks there in what the West dismissed as a ploy by Moscow to stem its heavy losses and regroup for other offensives. https://www.ft.com/content/e51014c3-0b97-4a3d-8a19-bc49b3ccd042 https://www.ft.com/content/e51014c3-0b97-4a3d-8a19-bc49b3ccd... Russia steps up bombardment of Ukraine’s biggest cities >Vladimir Putin’s forces adopt more aggressive tactics in bid to regain momentum on sixth day of invasion >Russia stepped up its bombardment of Ukraine’s biggest cities, firing missiles on targets in populated areas as Vladimir Putin’s forces turned to more brutal military tactics in a bid to regain momentum on the sixth day of the invasion. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/russia-widens-attack-with-airstrikes-on-western-ukraine-cities https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/russia-widens-... >Russia widens attack with airstrikes on western Ukraine cities >Airfields far from the main areas of war hit, while convoy near Kyiv seems to have dispersed into firing positions
watwut 4y ago
Yes that is how Russians excuse genocide and annexation they are committing. That does not make it true. The ideology you describe here is in fact definition of genocide - attempt to destroy Ukraine into not-existing. > This is why we don't bomb Ukranian cities It is well documented. You did destroyed multiple Ukrainian cities. You did tortured and committed massacres. Your soldiers rape kids, women, old. > We understand that they're people pumped by the Nazi propaganda to be used by the West to attack Russia, because NATO and/or USA are too afraid to attack Russia directly. No you dont. The right wing neonazi groups are strong in Russia.
_kbh_ 4y ago
> You show that everything you know about Russia and Ukraine is from western propaganda. I find it hard to believe that everything we see is western propaganda. One of the reasons for this is that the Russian propagandists on TV proudly boast about committing genocide, are the Russian tv shows western propaganda now?. Are the videos of the Russian tanks firing on fleeing civilians Western propaganda ? Are the multiple independent reports that show Russia is committing atrocities such as raping and torturing adults and children in Ukraine western propaganda?. Are the mass graves in multiple Ukrainian cities Western propaganda?.
- anticodon 4y ago
  > Are the multiple independent reports that show Russia is committing atrocities such as raping and torturing adults and children in Ukraine western propaganda?. Well, lots of them definitely are fake. Ukraine government had even to fire one of its propagandists because she started creating such an absurd fakes about rapes that nobody could believe this and it undermined the influence of Ukranian propaganda. Her name was Ludmila Denisova.
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    We can ignore any claims from Ukraine itself if you want because a independent report by the UN says the same thing. https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/09/update-chair-independent-international-commission-inquiry-ukraine-51st-session https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/09/update-chair-ind... ill quote it for you. "The Commission has documented cases in which children have been raped, tortured, and unlawfully confined. Children have also been killed and injured in indiscriminate attacks with explosive weapons. The exposure to repeated explosions, crimes, forced displacement and separation from family members deeply affected their well-being and mental health.".
lame-robot-hoax 4y ago
I’m not sure how to even respond to something as deluded as this. Quite evidently Ukrainians do not believe themselves to be Russian, are actively resisting Russian occupation, and will continue to until they fully push the incompetent Russian military off their land or Russia strikes a peace deal. Ukrainian cities and apartment complexes have very much been struck by Russian cruise missiles and artillery. Russia has destroyed Ukrainian dams and power plants. Truth be told, no one cares what you think in Russia. Ukrainians don’t see themselves as Russian, they see themselves as a separate people, and they will continue to be one since Russia is incapable of fielding a competent army. If 16 or so HIMARS are so capable of destroying Russian ammo depots, why would the US be scared of Russia when they have 380 or so HIMARS in possession? Not to mention the US Air Force and Navy is so far beyond their Russian equivalents it’s like comparing an MMA fighter to a 5 year old child at karate for the first time. Russia hasn’t even deployed Su-57s or T-14s because they largely do not exist outside of useless prototypes. The US has 300+ F-35s and 180+ F-22s that are leaps and bounds better than anything Russia is flying, not to mention the fuck ton of F-15s and F-16s still in use. And that’s just the USA. Fold the entirety of NATO into the equation and it’s obvious the Russian military does not hold the faintest thread to the US or NATO as a whole. Poland would crush Russia 1v1. The only thing Russia has going for it is nukes. Without them, it’s just a corrupt, broken, weak regional power. That’s really all it is with them.
- anticodon 4y ago
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  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    [flagged]
lm28469 4y ago
> This is why we don't bomb Ukranian cities You sure about that one ?

lm28469 4y ago

> what stops Putin from pulling the nukes out the next time he wants something? Article 5