7 ms·

James Hoffmann has a video on this paper: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoYBLn9hRqs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoYBLn9hRqs In my view, sure it's a perfe

James Hoffmann has a video on this paper: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoYBLn9hRqs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoYBLn9hRqs In my view, sure it's a perfectly good way of making something like espresso with good extraction, what a lot of coffee people call these days a turboshot. But it's not really providing what people usually want in an espresso: a concentrated, textured small coffee.

LesZedCB 4y ago
Lance Hedrick has a little more in-depth video, I found James' to be too brief. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOSbOZY_tN0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOSbOZY_tN0 i definitely don't drink a lot of dark roast espresso, but i think a turboshot has no problem producing adequate texture.
- lostlogin 4y ago
  But is it espresso? If you take a purist definition (9-10 bar extraction pressure) then some of the papers testing falls outside the definition. If it tastes different and is made in a new way, shouldn’t it get its own name?
  - esperent 4y ago
    Basically no one outside of Italy (where the definition was created) takes a purist approach to espresso anymore. Certainly no one in barista competitions ever uses it for the last 20 years or so. I can't recall the exact official definition but it's something like: 7g of coffee extracted under 9 bars of pressure at 94C yielding 14g of liquid. It's extremely limiting, for example it's designed for dark roast and isn't ideal for medium/light specialty coffee where you might have to adjust the temperature and yield to get good results. Modern high end espresso machines these days are starting to allow you to play with the variables and in the espresso community it's usually considered that anything over 6 bars is an espresso. Also, other techniques like pre-infusing at 1-3 bars before ramping up the pressure is common. Personally I'm partial to a long 20s pre-infusion at 1 bar before ramping up to 6-7bars. This yields a very sweet shot with a medium roast bean.
    - lostlogin 4y ago
      Oh for sure, I’m more arguing that it deserves a better name because as you note, it’s outside the normal for an espresso. Pre infusion aside, the article starts at the low end of your definition but does have graphs that go as low as 4 bar. That’s almost at the stage of being made using the pre infusion only, and perhaps I should try that as that’s down there. I prefer a thick crema (for look and taste) but I’ll try drop the pressure down and see if I’m persuaded. Regarding your long pre infusion - how much of the shot is being extracted after 20 seconds? I’d expect a good 5-10ml by that time but maybe your pressure is so low that little comes out.
      - esperent 4y ago
        > how much of the shot is being extracted after 20 seconds? Basically zero, maybe one or two drops. You need to grind finer though and you need a grinder capable of that. A decent hand grinder is ok (e.g. 1zpresso jx pro or max) but for electric grinders you're into the $600+ range before you can do it, e.g. a specialita or a niche .
  - theGnuMe 4y ago
    15-19 bar is way better. Nespresso operates in this range.
    - burmanm 4y ago
      Nespresso's taste is least likely to be anything anyone is looking for in a good espresso. That high pressure causes some odd taste notes and it would cause channeling in the puck. Not to mention all sort of other issues which start already at ~11 bars.
      - theGnuMe 4y ago
        I disagree and I've brewed many espressos many ways and I love a good espresso. I found this article interesting because they talk about the complexity of espresso as being characteristic of a mix of extractions at different pressures. This is apparently different than the model they came up with to brew the perfect espresso. But they also note that 9-11 bars is too high and go as low as 7. Fascinating.
        lostlogin 4y ago
        I’ve found there to be a distinct taste to Nespresso and go some way to avoid it (literally in some cases, it’s in cafes all over Europe). I’m not sure if it’s the coffee container or the high pressure and bean combo but it’s taste is not something I’d ever aim for. I strongly believe that the Nespresso was designed to solve/create a problem to fit their business model. In this order: Proprietary, good margin, small foot print (pods and extraction unit), easy to use, disposable.
        theGnuMe 4y ago
        That Euro cafe served nespresso coffee is different then the nespesso capsules for making espresso. I've had so I understand what you mean. The nespresso pod machines, it sure is a razorblade model but you can get quite and varied espressos.
    - menaerus 4y ago
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- hardwaregeek 4y ago
  Lance does have some wonderful videos with great insight, I just wish he'd edit them down. There's so so so much filler and tangents and fuss. They're like 20 minutes when they could be 10-15. Then again I respect that he's doing his own way instead of copying James' immaculate production with clean aesthetic, which it seems like quite a few people are doing in the coffee YouTube world.

LesZedCB 4y ago

Lance Hedrick has a little more in-depth video, I found James' to be too brief. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOSbOZY_tN0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOSbOZY_tN0 i definitely don't drink a lot of dark roast espresso, but i think a turboshot has no problem producing adequate texture.

lostlogin 4y ago
But is it espresso? If you take a purist definition (9-10 bar extraction pressure) then some of the papers testing falls outside the definition. If it tastes different and is made in a new way, shouldn’t it get its own name?
- esperent 4y ago
  Basically no one outside of Italy (where the definition was created) takes a purist approach to espresso anymore. Certainly no one in barista competitions ever uses it for the last 20 years or so. I can't recall the exact official definition but it's something like: 7g of coffee extracted under 9 bars of pressure at 94C yielding 14g of liquid. It's extremely limiting, for example it's designed for dark roast and isn't ideal for medium/light specialty coffee where you might have to adjust the temperature and yield to get good results. Modern high end espresso machines these days are starting to allow you to play with the variables and in the espresso community it's usually considered that anything over 6 bars is an espresso. Also, other techniques like pre-infusing at 1-3 bars before ramping up the pressure is common. Personally I'm partial to a long 20s pre-infusion at 1 bar before ramping up to 6-7bars. This yields a very sweet shot with a medium roast bean.
  - lostlogin 4y ago
    Oh for sure, I’m more arguing that it deserves a better name because as you note, it’s outside the normal for an espresso. Pre infusion aside, the article starts at the low end of your definition but does have graphs that go as low as 4 bar. That’s almost at the stage of being made using the pre infusion only, and perhaps I should try that as that’s down there. I prefer a thick crema (for look and taste) but I’ll try drop the pressure down and see if I’m persuaded. Regarding your long pre infusion - how much of the shot is being extracted after 20 seconds? I’d expect a good 5-10ml by that time but maybe your pressure is so low that little comes out.
    - esperent 4y ago
      > how much of the shot is being extracted after 20 seconds? Basically zero, maybe one or two drops. You need to grind finer though and you need a grinder capable of that. A decent hand grinder is ok (e.g. 1zpresso jx pro or max) but for electric grinders you're into the $600+ range before you can do it, e.g. a specialita or a niche .
- theGnuMe 4y ago
  15-19 bar is way better. Nespresso operates in this range.
  - burmanm 4y ago
    Nespresso's taste is least likely to be anything anyone is looking for in a good espresso. That high pressure causes some odd taste notes and it would cause channeling in the puck. Not to mention all sort of other issues which start already at ~11 bars.
    - theGnuMe 4y ago
      I disagree and I've brewed many espressos many ways and I love a good espresso. I found this article interesting because they talk about the complexity of espresso as being characteristic of a mix of extractions at different pressures. This is apparently different than the model they came up with to brew the perfect espresso. But they also note that 9-11 bars is too high and go as low as 7. Fascinating.
      - lostlogin 4y ago
        I’ve found there to be a distinct taste to Nespresso and go some way to avoid it (literally in some cases, it’s in cafes all over Europe). I’m not sure if it’s the coffee container or the high pressure and bean combo but it’s taste is not something I’d ever aim for. I strongly believe that the Nespresso was designed to solve/create a problem to fit their business model. In this order: Proprietary, good margin, small foot print (pods and extraction unit), easy to use, disposable.
        theGnuMe 4y ago
        That Euro cafe served nespresso coffee is different then the nespesso capsules for making espresso. I've had so I understand what you mean. The nespresso pod machines, it sure is a razorblade model but you can get quite and varied espressos.
  - menaerus 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
hardwaregeek 4y ago
Lance does have some wonderful videos with great insight, I just wish he'd edit them down. There's so so so much filler and tangents and fuss. They're like 20 minutes when they could be 10-15. Then again I respect that he's doing his own way instead of copying James' immaculate production with clean aesthetic, which it seems like quite a few people are doing in the coffee YouTube world.