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> In summary, we found that Matrix and its flagship client Element as deployed provided neither authentication nor confidentiality against homeservers that acti

by Syonyk 4y ago

> In summary, we found that Matrix and its flagship client Element as deployed provided neither authentication nor confidentiality against homeservers that actively attack the protocol, i.e. its end-to-end encryption fell short of the security guarantees expected from it. While... frustrating to see that these vulnerabilities exist, I'm happy to see that at least the bulk of them require a malicious homeserver. And Matrix makes it easy(ish... if you're a sysadmin type...) to run your own homeserver. I've generally assumed in the past couple years of running Matrix that if someone else controlled my homeserver, they could probably do something malicious, which is why I run my own, on hardware I control. Perfect? No, but it's a sure bit better than running on some major tech company's chat infrastructure. The main problem is I don't know of anything better, short of just giving up and going back to IRC - which, even with znc, isn't nearly as nice as Matrix/Element/etc, though it's far lighter to run at all ends. And IRC is mostly just plaintext (yes, there are some plugins that help, no, they don't really work reliably in my experience with them). I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but even with this bit of a charlie foxtrot going on, I still think Matrix is probably the least-awful of modern chat options, if you can run your own homeserver.

omegacharlie 4y ago
Is Synapse not infamous for its memory consumption and losing sync with other homeserver(s)?
- IceWreck 4y ago
  Well dendrite is beta software. Ive been running it for almost two years now and its close to synapse in functionality now while being super lightweight compared to it. And then there is Conduit which is written in Rust
- Syonyk 4y ago
  It's far heavier than I'd prefer, yes. However, I've got my own box colo'd, so I can give plenty of resources to the VM it runs in, and it seems to hold up just fine in operation. Realistically, the bulk of my traffic is to other users on the same homeserver, so I'm less likely to notice sync/federation issues. A few people do talk across different servers, though, and would bug me if something was broken. It seems to be fine, just very CPU and RAM heavy for what a chat server ought to be using in my view of things. I won't claim it's perfect, but it does provide for a robust and modern-ish chat service that's not reliant on the good will and data monetization of major tech companies.
- neiljohnson 4y ago
  Synapse has come a long way in the past few years both in terms of reliability and resource usage. The following give some details: * https://matrix.org/blog/2020/11/03/how-we-fixed-synapses-scalability https://matrix.org/blog/2020/11/03/how-we-fixed-synapses-sca... * https://twitter.com/matrixdotorg/status/1434912387933560837 https://twitter.com/matrixdotorg/status/1434912387933560837 What's more the Synapse team recently announced support for Rust meaning that various performance critical sub-components can be ported over from Python. * https://matrix.org/blog/2022/09/09/this-week-in-matrix-2022-09-09#synapse-website https://matrix.org/blog/2022/09/09/this-week-in-matrix-2022-... As mentioned elsewhere Dendrite (Go) and Conduit (Rust) are both entirely useable albeit beta implementations.
palata 4y ago
If you run your own homeserver and talk to people on homeservers you trust, that's fine. Now chances are that you talk to people who are not on your server, right? I like Matrix a lot, but the way I use IRC: for public rooms. For private discussions, I use Signal Messenger, which seems to get e2ee right, and does clever stuff to reduce their access to metadata (pretty sure matrix homeservers have to know in which rooms I am to fetch my messages, right?)
- Syonyk 4y ago
  My server is federated and seems to work that way, but... mostly, I talk to people on the server, or via my bridges. As far as Signal goes, my main concern there is just how centralized it is. I would assume "anyone with the interest and ability" is monitoring messages going to and from Signal, which would be at least somewhat easier than monitoring stuff to all the random homeservers out there. ... fundamentally, I'm not sure the internet is trustworthy at all, anymore. :(
  - palata 4y ago
    > As far as Signal goes, my main concern there is just how centralized it is. That's the whole point of end-to-end encryption: you don't have to trust the server if e2ee is done right. Matrix is decentralized, but as this disclosure shows, they have issues with e2ee. Signal is centralized, but I have never, ever heard of a security issue with the Signal protocol. So yeah... you may have concerns about Signal being centralized (e.g. they have the power to shut it down, and I guess they could ban users), but end-to-end encryption is not one. Actually Signal probably has one of the best e2ee out there.
    - Arathorn 4y ago
      Signal has security bugs line the best of them. The most famous is probably https://thehackerblog.com/i-too-like-to-live-dangerously-accidentally-finding-rce-in-signal-desktop-via-html-injection-in-quoted-replies/ https://thehackerblog.com/i-too-like-to-live-dangerously-acc... - which gave full RCE, letting the attacker steal all your messages or worse. The two critical bugs in question here were similarly implementation bugs in matrix-js-sdk and its derivatives. Separately, there’s a question over the fact Matrix by design controls group membership on the server… and warns users if malicious devices get added, rather than explicitly forbidding them. We’re fixing that anyway, but it’s questionable if this counts as “issues with e2ee” - it’s similar to deriding Signal for pushing all the users in your addressbook when you join the app(!)

by Syonyk 4y ago

omegacharlie 4y ago

Is Synapse not infamous for its memory consumption and losing sync with other homeserver(s)?

IceWreck 4y ago
Well dendrite is beta software. Ive been running it for almost two years now and its close to synapse in functionality now while being super lightweight compared to it. And then there is Conduit which is written in Rust
Syonyk 4y ago
It's far heavier than I'd prefer, yes. However, I've got my own box colo'd, so I can give plenty of resources to the VM it runs in, and it seems to hold up just fine in operation. Realistically, the bulk of my traffic is to other users on the same homeserver, so I'm less likely to notice sync/federation issues. A few people do talk across different servers, though, and would bug me if something was broken. It seems to be fine, just very CPU and RAM heavy for what a chat server ought to be using in my view of things. I won't claim it's perfect, but it does provide for a robust and modern-ish chat service that's not reliant on the good will and data monetization of major tech companies.
neiljohnson 4y ago
Synapse has come a long way in the past few years both in terms of reliability and resource usage. The following give some details: * https://matrix.org/blog/2020/11/03/how-we-fixed-synapses-scalability https://matrix.org/blog/2020/11/03/how-we-fixed-synapses-sca... * https://twitter.com/matrixdotorg/status/1434912387933560837 https://twitter.com/matrixdotorg/status/1434912387933560837 What's more the Synapse team recently announced support for Rust meaning that various performance critical sub-components can be ported over from Python. * https://matrix.org/blog/2022/09/09/this-week-in-matrix-2022-09-09#synapse-website https://matrix.org/blog/2022/09/09/this-week-in-matrix-2022-... As mentioned elsewhere Dendrite (Go) and Conduit (Rust) are both entirely useable albeit beta implementations.

palata 4y ago

If you run your own homeserver and talk to people on homeservers you trust, that's fine. Now chances are that you talk to people who are not on your server, right? I like Matrix a lot, but the way I use IRC: for public rooms. For private discussions, I use Signal Messenger, which seems to get e2ee right, and does clever stuff to reduce their access to metadata (pretty sure matrix homeservers have to know in which rooms I am to fetch my messages, right?)

Syonyk 4y ago
My server is federated and seems to work that way, but... mostly, I talk to people on the server, or via my bridges. As far as Signal goes, my main concern there is just how centralized it is. I would assume "anyone with the interest and ability" is monitoring messages going to and from Signal, which would be at least somewhat easier than monitoring stuff to all the random homeservers out there. ... fundamentally, I'm not sure the internet is trustworthy at all, anymore. :(
- palata 4y ago
  > As far as Signal goes, my main concern there is just how centralized it is. That's the whole point of end-to-end encryption: you don't have to trust the server if e2ee is done right. Matrix is decentralized, but as this disclosure shows, they have issues with e2ee. Signal is centralized, but I have never, ever heard of a security issue with the Signal protocol. So yeah... you may have concerns about Signal being centralized (e.g. they have the power to shut it down, and I guess they could ban users), but end-to-end encryption is not one. Actually Signal probably has one of the best e2ee out there.
  - Arathorn 4y ago
    Signal has security bugs line the best of them. The most famous is probably https://thehackerblog.com/i-too-like-to-live-dangerously-accidentally-finding-rce-in-signal-desktop-via-html-injection-in-quoted-replies/ https://thehackerblog.com/i-too-like-to-live-dangerously-acc... - which gave full RCE, letting the attacker steal all your messages or worse. The two critical bugs in question here were similarly implementation bugs in matrix-js-sdk and its derivatives. Separately, there’s a question over the fact Matrix by design controls group membership on the server… and warns users if malicious devices get added, rather than explicitly forbidding them. We’re fixing that anyway, but it’s questionable if this counts as “issues with e2ee” - it’s similar to deriding Signal for pushing all the users in your addressbook when you join the app(!)