3 ms·

It has a block of text, whose purpose isn't clear at the beginning [1], and requires you to read the entire comment, in its thick prose, and the article in orde

by SilasX 4y ago

It has a block of text, whose purpose isn't clear at the beginning [1], and requires you to read the entire comment, in its thick prose, and the article in order to understand, and even then you have to guess which point its referring, but could be wrong because cercatrova didn't actually own one. Here is how I would have done the comment: --- >people worried that the electric push button would make human skills atrophy. They wondered if such devices would seal off the wonders of technology into a black box: “effortless, opaque, and therefore unquestioned by consumers.” This reminds me of Socrates's story about how people in the ancient world worried about the atrophy from being able to use writing: >>"For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise." Full context (Plato's Phaedrus 14, 274c-275b): https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DPhaedrus%3Apage%3D274 https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext... --- Advantages: A) Gets right to the point (so that if you already know the point, you can skip it.) B) Saves everyone the time and effort of reading thick prose, most of which includes references to historical figures C) Still quotes the relevant part. D) Still contains a quick link to the rest of the context that cercatrova considered oh-so-important to add. E) Contains a citation that can be googled in case the link goes dead. F) Doesn't take a big wall of text. But yes, it does have downsides: it G) takes actual communication effort, H) owns a specific point, and I) doesn't make cercatrova look cryptically wise. If those are your desiderata, then yeah, I agree he did it right, and everyone was right to vote it to the top of the discussion. Can you elaborate on what you think we gain from making everyone read 6x as much with no indication of what the actual point is? [1] I'm including people who weren't already aware of the quote, though you don't seem to think their vote matters here.

fredrb 4y ago
That’s usually how human conversations go. It’s not always efficient. You should try it sometime.
- SilasX 4y ago
  Like "life isn't fair" and "most vendors have an abusive EULA", if you ever find yourself saying that to defend your side ... you're probably on the wrong side. Clear communication is good. You should welcome suggestions for how to communicate better. "Try it sometime", as it were.
ordu 4y ago
> It has a block of text, whose purpose isn't clear at the beginning [1], and requires you to read the entire comment Nah. It makes you think, I personally like to practice the art of thinking, of making connections between seemingly unconnected things, like Socrates and push buttons. Try to guess the point of a big comment by a first few sentences. And here I guessed right, that it would be about dangers of writing. But it was easy here, because letters are mentioned in a third sentence with emphasis: "and, most important of all, letters." > its thick prose > Can you elaborate on what you think we gain from making everyone read 6x as much with no indication of what the actual point is? I force myself to read thick prose sometimes, it is a way to practice attention and an ability to understand others. Maybe it was the reason why it was easy to me to guess the point of the comment? But no one is forced to read it. For example, it seems to me you didn't read it through. I didn't read it. I read first few sentences, and skimmed to the end, to ensure that my guess is right. > Advantages: You are silently assume that a clarity and the ease of consumption is among of the top priorities. But it may not be so. Didn't you think that a comment about letters can be composed in a thick and hard to comprehend prose on a purpose to make some point about letters (that are supposed to be easy)? And about buttons too (that are supposed to be easy too)? I do not see what this point may be, but it could be because I'm too stupid to see it.
- SilasX 4y ago
  >It makes you think, I personally like to practice the art of thinking, of making connections between seemingly unconnected things, like Socrates and push buttons So I guess I can add you to the list of people missing the irony. There three "technologies" here: writing, push buttons, and clear writing. In historical context -- because of cercatrova's oh-so clever, unclear comment -- we can laugh at how foolish it was to dismiss writing or push buttons as "causing atrophy". Now, I'm advocating the third "technology", clear writing, and you're responding exactly like the very same ridiculed people: "Oh no, if people write clearly, then others won't get necessary practice in tolerating crappy prose! I'm a superior person who can parse crappy prose -- don't take that advantage from me!" > force myself to read thick prose sometimes, it is a way to practice attention and an ability to understand others. Maybe it was the reason why it was easy to me to guess the point of the comment? So, what, you're saying you're more deserving of knowing the point of the comment than others? That it's good that they didn't get it? >You are silently assume that a clarity and the ease of consumption is among of the top priorities. But it may not be so. Didn't you think that a comment about letters can be composed in a thick and hard to comprehend prose on a purpose to make some point about letters (that are supposed to be easy)? And about buttons too (that are supposed to be easy too)? I do not see what this point may be, but it could be because I'm too stupid to see it. Or because the point could have been made explicit, but wasn't. In any case, with this comment, you've indicated you've drunk the koolaid. You're actually defending people making themselves harder to understand than necessary, rather than maturely accepting feedback on how to make your point clearer.

by SilasX 4y ago

fredrb 4y ago

That’s usually how human conversations go. It’s not always efficient. You should try it sometime.

SilasX 4y ago
Like "life isn't fair" and "most vendors have an abusive EULA", if you ever find yourself saying that to defend your side ... you're probably on the wrong side. Clear communication is good. You should welcome suggestions for how to communicate better. "Try it sometime", as it were.

ordu 4y ago

> It has a block of text, whose purpose isn't clear at the beginning [1], and requires you to read the entire comment Nah. It makes you think, I personally like to practice the art of thinking, of making connections between seemingly unconnected things, like Socrates and push buttons. Try to guess the point of a big comment by a first few sentences. And here I guessed right, that it would be about dangers of writing. But it was easy here, because letters are mentioned in a third sentence with emphasis: "and, most important of all, letters." > its thick prose > Can you elaborate on what you think we gain from making everyone read 6x as much with no indication of what the actual point is? I force myself to read thick prose sometimes, it is a way to practice attention and an ability to understand others. Maybe it was the reason why it was easy to me to guess the point of the comment? But no one is forced to read it. For example, it seems to me you didn't read it through. I didn't read it. I read first few sentences, and skimmed to the end, to ensure that my guess is right. > Advantages: You are silently assume that a clarity and the ease of consumption is among of the top priorities. But it may not be so. Didn't you think that a comment about letters can be composed in a thick and hard to comprehend prose on a purpose to make some point about letters (that are supposed to be easy)? And about buttons too (that are supposed to be easy too)? I do not see what this point may be, but it could be because I'm too stupid to see it.

SilasX 4y ago
>It makes you think, I personally like to practice the art of thinking, of making connections between seemingly unconnected things, like Socrates and push buttons So I guess I can add you to the list of people missing the irony. There three "technologies" here: writing, push buttons, and clear writing. In historical context -- because of cercatrova's oh-so clever, unclear comment -- we can laugh at how foolish it was to dismiss writing or push buttons as "causing atrophy". Now, I'm advocating the third "technology", clear writing, and you're responding exactly like the very same ridiculed people: "Oh no, if people write clearly, then others won't get necessary practice in tolerating crappy prose! I'm a superior person who can parse crappy prose -- don't take that advantage from me!" > force myself to read thick prose sometimes, it is a way to practice attention and an ability to understand others. Maybe it was the reason why it was easy to me to guess the point of the comment? So, what, you're saying you're more deserving of knowing the point of the comment than others? That it's good that they didn't get it? >You are silently assume that a clarity and the ease of consumption is among of the top priorities. But it may not be so. Didn't you think that a comment about letters can be composed in a thick and hard to comprehend prose on a purpose to make some point about letters (that are supposed to be easy)? And about buttons too (that are supposed to be easy too)? I do not see what this point may be, but it could be because I'm too stupid to see it. Or because the point could have been made explicit, but wasn't. In any case, with this comment, you've indicated you've drunk the koolaid. You're actually defending people making themselves harder to understand than necessary, rather than maturely accepting feedback on how to make your point clearer.