4 ms·

> Honestly it’s like you people think the police and prisons are free. No, I think those things cost money and are worth paying for. What did I write that mad

> Honestly it’s like you people think the police and prisons are free. No, I think those things cost money and are worth paying for. What did I write that made you think I thought they were free?

TaylorAlexander 4y ago
Because you outright dismiss building social housing as expensive and ineffective but you want to put them in to an equally expensive situation that is clearly less effective. I cannot imagine why you would think prison is better than social housing unless you ignore the very real cost of prison.
- twblalock 4y ago
  Prison is social housing, but it’s mandatory rather than optional. We could build all the social housing we want, but it will only house people who willingly move into it. Many homeless people are insane drug addicts, and they are the ones who disrupt society, and they will not willingly change. What would you do about that?
  - closeparen 4y ago
    Some people are going to need more intensive (and possibly coercive) care and supervision than social housing provides, but it is not like they're struggling to fill social housing units. Backlogs are deep and competitive. We need a lot more of them.
  - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
    Prison abuses the soul and doesn’t help the individual. Look at the recidivism rates for US prisons to see how prison does nothing to rehabilitate people. If prison doesn’t help someone and you want to send them to prison, then you aren’t actually trying to help people you’re just trying to get rid of them. If you actually try to help people you will see how much better social housing is. But I don’t think that’s where your mind is at. You see these people as a lost cause and you want police to take them away. Don’t pretend you care if you actually just want them gone. “Many people are insane drug addicts” Lots of people in society are drug addicts. Probably the rate is slightly higher amongst the homeless because homelessness can be hard. Lots of people don’t want to go to existing shelters because of the draconian rules at those shelters. Probably you wouldn’t want to live in a place either if you had to be home every night at 8pm and you couldn’t have friends over and you weren’t allowed to have some beer. Does that mean we should throw you in prison? What I would do is provide the services these people need. Housing, mental health services, counseling, job training, and job placement programs. All told this would cost less than prison because these programs have been shown to actually help people, so the burden to the state will go down over a few years as these programs do what they are supposed to. But prison won’t help them, so the costs will continue for as long as they are in prison, and once they are released you’re back where you started. Don’t pretend you want to help people if you don’t actually care what is most effective at helping them.
    - twblalock 4y ago
      > Don’t pretend you want to help people if you don’t actually care what is most effective at helping them. I want to help people. I just recognize reality. All of what you have suggested has been tried, and has failed, and now the streets of San Francisco are unrecognizably bad. Dystopian sci-fi movies from the 1980s are actually better than the reality on the streets today. Also, who are we trying to help? Personally I care more about the person living in an apartment who has to deal with crazy people stabbing each other outside of their window in the morning than I do about the crazy people stabbing each other. Not enough attention has been paid to the people who are trying to live upright lives while being surrounded by this violence -- going to work, raising children, etc. They matter too.
      - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
        > All of what you have suggested has been tried, and has failed People love to say this while ignoring the fact that universal health care and social housing absolutely work in other parts of the world. Whatever parts of this strategy you think have been tried, it’s clear there are ways to make it work. You’d rather abandon those people you consider lesser because of mental illness or addiction, but we can in fact support those people for the same price as a prison cell. It’s remarkable that you think you recognize reality and believe these things can’t work, because $60k per year of spending on social services would absolutely work. I mean hell the average German only needs something like $8k in services for medical care per year. You don’t think that would help?? You can claim to “recognize reality” but you’re ignoring how effective public spending is the world over.
        twblalock 4y ago
        America is not Germany. We have different people, and different problems. We have a uniquely violent and psychotic homeless population. You have probably not seen anything like it.
        munk-a 4y ago
        I believe this is extremely untrue - during the 70's it was (depressingly) actually accurate as stupid American politics kept leaded gasoline legal far beyond when it was known to be dangerous and caused a significant jump in violent crime but, for the most part, people are people. If you think Americans are unable to function as well as Germans then I hope you're speaking out loudly at PTA meetings because it must mean the American education system is utterly broken.

> Honestly it’s like you people think the police and prisons are free. No, I think those things cost money and are worth paying for. What did I write that made you think I thought they were free?

TaylorAlexander 4y ago

Because you outright dismiss building social housing as expensive and ineffective but you want to put them in to an equally expensive situation that is clearly less effective. I cannot imagine why you would think prison is better than social housing unless you ignore the very real cost of prison.

twblalock 4y ago
Prison is social housing, but it’s mandatory rather than optional. We could build all the social housing we want, but it will only house people who willingly move into it. Many homeless people are insane drug addicts, and they are the ones who disrupt society, and they will not willingly change. What would you do about that?
- closeparen 4y ago
  Some people are going to need more intensive (and possibly coercive) care and supervision than social housing provides, but it is not like they're struggling to fill social housing units. Backlogs are deep and competitive. We need a lot more of them.
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  Prison abuses the soul and doesn’t help the individual. Look at the recidivism rates for US prisons to see how prison does nothing to rehabilitate people. If prison doesn’t help someone and you want to send them to prison, then you aren’t actually trying to help people you’re just trying to get rid of them. If you actually try to help people you will see how much better social housing is. But I don’t think that’s where your mind is at. You see these people as a lost cause and you want police to take them away. Don’t pretend you care if you actually just want them gone. “Many people are insane drug addicts” Lots of people in society are drug addicts. Probably the rate is slightly higher amongst the homeless because homelessness can be hard. Lots of people don’t want to go to existing shelters because of the draconian rules at those shelters. Probably you wouldn’t want to live in a place either if you had to be home every night at 8pm and you couldn’t have friends over and you weren’t allowed to have some beer. Does that mean we should throw you in prison? What I would do is provide the services these people need. Housing, mental health services, counseling, job training, and job placement programs. All told this would cost less than prison because these programs have been shown to actually help people, so the burden to the state will go down over a few years as these programs do what they are supposed to. But prison won’t help them, so the costs will continue for as long as they are in prison, and once they are released you’re back where you started. Don’t pretend you want to help people if you don’t actually care what is most effective at helping them.
  - twblalock 4y ago
    > Don’t pretend you want to help people if you don’t actually care what is most effective at helping them. I want to help people. I just recognize reality. All of what you have suggested has been tried, and has failed, and now the streets of San Francisco are unrecognizably bad. Dystopian sci-fi movies from the 1980s are actually better than the reality on the streets today. Also, who are we trying to help? Personally I care more about the person living in an apartment who has to deal with crazy people stabbing each other outside of their window in the morning than I do about the crazy people stabbing each other. Not enough attention has been paid to the people who are trying to live upright lives while being surrounded by this violence -- going to work, raising children, etc. They matter too.
    - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
      > All of what you have suggested has been tried, and has failed People love to say this while ignoring the fact that universal health care and social housing absolutely work in other parts of the world. Whatever parts of this strategy you think have been tried, it’s clear there are ways to make it work. You’d rather abandon those people you consider lesser because of mental illness or addiction, but we can in fact support those people for the same price as a prison cell. It’s remarkable that you think you recognize reality and believe these things can’t work, because $60k per year of spending on social services would absolutely work. I mean hell the average German only needs something like $8k in services for medical care per year. You don’t think that would help?? You can claim to “recognize reality” but you’re ignoring how effective public spending is the world over.
      - twblalock 4y ago
        America is not Germany. We have different people, and different problems. We have a uniquely violent and psychotic homeless population. You have probably not seen anything like it.
        munk-a 4y ago
        I believe this is extremely untrue - during the 70's it was (depressingly) actually accurate as stupid American politics kept leaded gasoline legal far beyond when it was known to be dangerous and caused a significant jump in violent crime but, for the most part, people are people. If you think Americans are unable to function as well as Germans then I hope you're speaking out loudly at PTA meetings because it must mean the American education system is utterly broken.