4 ms·

> Why do you consider that a privacy violation? Because that is the culture in USA. You finding it weird is not a reason to be dismissive.

jedberg 4y ago
I never said I found it weird, nor was I being dismissive. I was asking OP to question their own assumptions. Their default assumption was "salary is private" and I wanted them to ask themselves why they feel that way.
- notinfuriated 4y ago
  I suppose it's a good question, but I'd also ask people to justify why they think it isn't private. Really though, I haven't thought about this question much. I'll give it a shot: I were going on a first date, and the woman asked me as getting-to-know-you small-talk, "What is your annual salary?" I would find this off-putting. Same if I were meeting her parents sometime later and they asked me. I'd find it strange if a neighbor asked me, or if a used car salesman asked me, etc. My default assumption, if someone asks me my salary, is to think about for what purpose would they want to know this information, as the knowledge of my salary would imply they intend to treat me differently based on my response. (So in the case of a first date, I could say a number where she responds, "That's not enough for me!" and gets up to leave. Or for a car salesman, he might say, "Oh, well, this car is usually $15,000, but for you it is $16,000.") The only cases where I find this to be a reasonable request is when I'm applying for a loan or credit, as I think it's fair for underwriters to want to be able to calculate whether or not they think I'm good to pay them back (and, on my end, I'm expecting to receive temporarily-free money from them, so the transaction is not one-sided). Now, I don't think that's automatically the case with a law like this, but I don't think it's not the case either! So I have a continued expectation that my salary is Nunya. Unless someone can pose a convincing argument that it ought not be private, or if such a law would also prohibit my employer or others treating me differently with the knowledge of my salary, I will not support laws like these.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    > Unless someone can pose a convincing argument that it ought not be private https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency_(market) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency_(market) > Transparency is important since it is one of the theoretical conditions required for a free market to be efficient How should high schoolers know which skills to pour their time and energy into acquiring if they do not have information about which way labor prices are moving?
    - notinfuriated 4y ago
      Isn't this achieved from something like the CA law proposed but without demographic data? At a past job, they anonymized company survey data at various levels including not sharing demo breakdowns in data if a person was on a team with fewer than four members or something like that. I'd be open to a law like the one in CA with the stipulation that demo breakdown data won't be shared if it represents two or fewer employees in a group. Market transparency is good and can be achieved to some extent without knowing an employee's exact salary. I'll add that I've also worked with envious people who would potentially treat their coworkers in a hostile manner if they perceive some unfair imbalance in their pay, rather than seeking a new job or taking it out on an employer. For some, there is a crabs-in-a-bucket mentality.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        My preference would have been to simply require publicly posted job ranges on job listings. I would not even need maximum pay, the minimum pay would be enough info. Although I would have required including health insurance metal level and subsidy percentage and 401k match, since they are significant and easy to predict/measure components of compensation. The demographic stuff is a waste of time and potentially harmful, in my opinion. > I'll add that I've also worked with envious people who would potentially treat their coworkers in a hostile manner if they perceive some unfair imbalance in their pay, rather than seeking a new job or taking it out on an employer. For some, there is a crabs-in-a-bucket mentality. I feel like this mentality would get rectified quickly. There are many jobs with publicly known disparities in pay that function properly, such as finance, tech, and government. It will be a problem initially due to having to reconfigure people’s expectations, but after that it should be fine.
vkou 4y ago
It's objectively weird that your salary is private, except to other employers, banks, landlords, lenders, your cable company, and literally anyone else who pays Equifax $30 to run a credit check on you. It's public for nearly anyone who matters, and private for nearly anyone who doesn't. It's public for nearly anyone who can use this information against you. It's private if you want to use it to benefit yourself.
0x457 4y ago
It's not weird, but the reason you find it a privacy violation is that you're told so by employees (directly or indirectly. Employees are the only side to benefit from you being secretive about it. There are really not that many reasons to hide it, unless you're lying to someone about it. I've used knowledge of someone's salary to tilt negotiation in my favor multiple times.
int_19h 4y ago
Cultures change.

jedberg 4y ago

I never said I found it weird, nor was I being dismissive. I was asking OP to question their own assumptions. Their default assumption was "salary is private" and I wanted them to ask themselves why they feel that way.

notinfuriated 4y ago
I suppose it's a good question, but I'd also ask people to justify why they think it isn't private. Really though, I haven't thought about this question much. I'll give it a shot: I were going on a first date, and the woman asked me as getting-to-know-you small-talk, "What is your annual salary?" I would find this off-putting. Same if I were meeting her parents sometime later and they asked me. I'd find it strange if a neighbor asked me, or if a used car salesman asked me, etc. My default assumption, if someone asks me my salary, is to think about for what purpose would they want to know this information, as the knowledge of my salary would imply they intend to treat me differently based on my response. (So in the case of a first date, I could say a number where she responds, "That's not enough for me!" and gets up to leave. Or for a car salesman, he might say, "Oh, well, this car is usually $15,000, but for you it is $16,000.") The only cases where I find this to be a reasonable request is when I'm applying for a loan or credit, as I think it's fair for underwriters to want to be able to calculate whether or not they think I'm good to pay them back (and, on my end, I'm expecting to receive temporarily-free money from them, so the transaction is not one-sided). Now, I don't think that's automatically the case with a law like this, but I don't think it's not the case either! So I have a continued expectation that my salary is Nunya. Unless someone can pose a convincing argument that it ought not be private, or if such a law would also prohibit my employer or others treating me differently with the knowledge of my salary, I will not support laws like these.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  > Unless someone can pose a convincing argument that it ought not be private https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency_(market) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency_(market) > Transparency is important since it is one of the theoretical conditions required for a free market to be efficient How should high schoolers know which skills to pour their time and energy into acquiring if they do not have information about which way labor prices are moving?
  - notinfuriated 4y ago
    Isn't this achieved from something like the CA law proposed but without demographic data? At a past job, they anonymized company survey data at various levels including not sharing demo breakdowns in data if a person was on a team with fewer than four members or something like that. I'd be open to a law like the one in CA with the stipulation that demo breakdown data won't be shared if it represents two or fewer employees in a group. Market transparency is good and can be achieved to some extent without knowing an employee's exact salary. I'll add that I've also worked with envious people who would potentially treat their coworkers in a hostile manner if they perceive some unfair imbalance in their pay, rather than seeking a new job or taking it out on an employer. For some, there is a crabs-in-a-bucket mentality.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      My preference would have been to simply require publicly posted job ranges on job listings. I would not even need maximum pay, the minimum pay would be enough info. Although I would have required including health insurance metal level and subsidy percentage and 401k match, since they are significant and easy to predict/measure components of compensation. The demographic stuff is a waste of time and potentially harmful, in my opinion. > I'll add that I've also worked with envious people who would potentially treat their coworkers in a hostile manner if they perceive some unfair imbalance in their pay, rather than seeking a new job or taking it out on an employer. For some, there is a crabs-in-a-bucket mentality. I feel like this mentality would get rectified quickly. There are many jobs with publicly known disparities in pay that function properly, such as finance, tech, and government. It will be a problem initially due to having to reconfigure people’s expectations, but after that it should be fine.

vkou 4y ago

It's objectively weird that your salary is private, except to other employers, banks, landlords, lenders, your cable company, and literally anyone else who pays Equifax $30 to run a credit check on you. It's public for nearly anyone who matters, and private for nearly anyone who doesn't. It's public for nearly anyone who can use this information against you. It's private if you want to use it to benefit yourself.

0x457 4y ago

It's not weird, but the reason you find it a privacy violation is that you're told so by employees (directly or indirectly. Employees are the only side to benefit from you being secretive about it. There are really not that many reasons to hide it, unless you're lying to someone about it. I've used knowledge of someone's salary to tilt negotiation in my favor multiple times.

int_19h 4y ago

Cultures change.