6 ms·

The most troubling thing, that is somewhat observable in today's threads, is that ostracizing sex work is almost entirely normalized. People favor legal structu

by _ktx2 4y ago

The most troubling thing, that is somewhat observable in today's threads, is that ostracizing sex work is almost entirely normalized. People favor legal structures analogous to Don't Ask Don't Tell. This tees up a system of cascading effects: - Sex workers must now navigate a very fluid monetary system. Sex workers must be paid in cash, Bitcoin, etc. Then they have to somehow represent this money to the federal government to pay their taxes. - Everyone around sex workers are considered criminals. Unknowingly rent a property to a sex worker? You're a criminal. Date a sex worker? Suspected to be a criminal. Lend money to a sex worker? Criminal. Use sex work services? Definitely a criminal. This system shoves sex workers into an intentional class system that prohibits them from owning property, prohibits their use of public services, prohibits their utilization of our monetary system. All of these things, when used, don't just benefit the sex workers - they benefit you. One of the uncomfortable conversations that many people don't want to have is that sex work is heavily used by society and yet neglected constantly, thereby making it dangerous for both sex workers and the users, even making it more dangerous at times.

npteljes 4y ago
>ostracizing sex work is almost entirely normalized 100%. One of the universal curses people throw at each other is implying that someone's mother is a prostitute, or that they are a product of extramarital sex, implying the promiscuity of the mother. This all is hand-in-hand with the implied comtempt towards women of course.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > 100%. One of the universal curses people throw at each other is implying that someone's mother is a prostitute, or that they are a product of extramarital sex, implying the promiscuity of the mother. This all is hand-in-hand with the implied comtempt towards women of course. How so? Not all women are prostitutes.
  - staticassertion 4y ago
    Because no one's throwing around "your father is a prostitute" as an insult.
    - tablespoon 4y ago
      > Because no one's throwing around "your father is a prostitute" as an insult. There's all kinds of things that people insult men/fathers for that they wouldn't use for women/mothers (e.g. strength, financial success, etc). It's just gender roles, not generalized contempt for women (and going that far is probably just politically motivated exaggeration).
      - npteljes 4y ago
        I think the contempt is there, because we're talking about someone's parent, and for some reason, all cultures (that I know of) picked the mother as the one being out of line. As in, when there's someone that's out of line, that has to be the woman. If this would be random, or balanced, we'd curse at others like your father is a deadbeat, or that your father's sperm is weak, and therefore you are weak, or things like that. Yet that just doesn't come up much. Edit: I do get your point though. It's not as straightforward as I implied. In fact I think that it's a complex, interwoven system, which comes up unfair for everyone. But I do observe a general hatred toward women, and if something like this curse comes up, I can't help but think that the two are in connection.
        tablespoon 4y ago
        > I think the contempt is there, because we're talking about someone's parent, and for some reason, all cultures (that I know of) picked the mother as the one being out of line. As in, when there's someone that's out of line, that has to be the woman. There's definitely contempt there, but just for the person being insulted. I think you're analyzing those kinds of insults using the wrong framework. It doesn't have much to do with women as a class, but rather with the relationship with the insulted person to his mother. Insulting someone's mother will probably get under someone's skin more than insulting their father, because (especially historically) they probably have a warmer/closer relationship with their mother due to gender roles around child-rearing.
  - npteljes 4y ago
    Curses don't try to be true, they are to express frustration, or to hurt someone's feelings.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- bandie91 4y ago
  "son of a b_tch" implies "son of an adulterer/fornicator"
  - Etherlord87 4y ago
    This is an educated, albeit only a speculation of mine that I never confirmed: in the past (medieval times) people used to describe inferior things by comparing them to dogs like "dog's weather", "you will die like a dog" and many other sayings. It's wrong to think that your mother is being insulted by being called the "son of a bitch" (it's also pointless to censor the word as you did). What it means, or at least what it originally meant, is that you came out of a womb of a dog. In other words, if you're with your mom in a room, and someone calls you a son of a bitch, the claim is not that the woman you take for your mom is a bitch, rather, that you're wrong and your mom is actually not in the room (unless there's also a female dog in that room).
tablespoon 4y ago
The OP appears to be mostly talking about porn, but your points seem to be mostly addressing prostitution. Prostitution has long considered an disreputable and undesirable activity, and it along with other types of sex work are often tightly coupled with involuntary exploitation. A lot of the stuff that you're criticizing derives from attempts to continue to legally discourage prostitution while preventing the legal system from further punishing women who are being exploited.
- gautamdivgi 4y ago
  Isn’t prostitution essentially porn without the cameras? Why ostracize legal prostitution? If porn is allowed, prostitution should be too. Yes, there are issues of exploitation and licensing. They are at both places - maybe less for porn because it’s not as much in the shadows. Bring sex work out of the shadows. Just normalize it.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > Isn’t prostitution essentially porn without the cameras? Why ostracize legal prostitution? If porn is allowed, prostitution should be too. IIRC, porn would be illegal, except the performance aspect gave it First Amendment cover. It might also be significant that porn seems to have traditionally involved a 3rd party paying two people to have sex, so that's arguably not prostitution. It's probably arguably illegal prostitution if one person pays another to sex with them and films it. You can't videotape an illegal act to make it legal.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      Legal hack: Recite poetry while robbing the bank, so the first amendment protects you!
      - medstrom 4y ago
        Maybe if you also bring along a camera crew and declare at the start that this is an art piece you're doing.
s_ting765 4y ago
> One of the uncomfortable conversations that many people don't want to have is that sex work is heavily used by society and yet neglected constantly, thereby making it dangerous for both sex workers and the users, even making it more dangerous at times. I have heard this familiar argument made for the legalization of narcotics.
andrepd 4y ago
What is "funny" is that this view is held by two very different groups of people. - Moralist conservatives which despise sex work and sex workers for ideological and religious reasons - Progressives which think it's degrading and negative that somebody is forced to sell their sex to survive (which is a noble thought), and therefore think banning sex work will help that goal (we all know how that went wrt drugs...)
kylebenzle 4y ago
rurban 4y ago
> Everyone around sex workers are considered criminals. Unknowingly rent a property to a sex worker? You're a criminal. Date a sex worker? Suspected to be a criminal. Lend money to a sex worker? Criminal. Use sex work services? Definitely a criminal. Only in those third world countries where prostitution is still illegal. In the modern world not. https://prostitution.procon.org/countries-and-their-prostitution-policies/ https://prostitution.procon.org/countries-and-their-prostitu...
- kodah 4y ago
  If you feel so confidently in the laws of your country there's a simple exercise you can do: get an escort with the intended purpose of asking them about their experiences. If you feel fear, angst, etc, if you start googling legalities then I think you'll have a better perspective of the intricate web these policies have woven to trap people and accuse them of moral crimes.

by _ktx2 4y ago

npteljes 4y ago

>ostracizing sex work is almost entirely normalized 100%. One of the universal curses people throw at each other is implying that someone's mother is a prostitute, or that they are a product of extramarital sex, implying the promiscuity of the mother. This all is hand-in-hand with the implied comtempt towards women of course.

tablespoon 4y ago
> 100%. One of the universal curses people throw at each other is implying that someone's mother is a prostitute, or that they are a product of extramarital sex, implying the promiscuity of the mother. This all is hand-in-hand with the implied comtempt towards women of course. How so? Not all women are prostitutes.
- staticassertion 4y ago
  Because no one's throwing around "your father is a prostitute" as an insult.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > Because no one's throwing around "your father is a prostitute" as an insult. There's all kinds of things that people insult men/fathers for that they wouldn't use for women/mothers (e.g. strength, financial success, etc). It's just gender roles, not generalized contempt for women (and going that far is probably just politically motivated exaggeration).
    - npteljes 4y ago
      I think the contempt is there, because we're talking about someone's parent, and for some reason, all cultures (that I know of) picked the mother as the one being out of line. As in, when there's someone that's out of line, that has to be the woman. If this would be random, or balanced, we'd curse at others like your father is a deadbeat, or that your father's sperm is weak, and therefore you are weak, or things like that. Yet that just doesn't come up much. Edit: I do get your point though. It's not as straightforward as I implied. In fact I think that it's a complex, interwoven system, which comes up unfair for everyone. But I do observe a general hatred toward women, and if something like this curse comes up, I can't help but think that the two are in connection.
      - tablespoon 4y ago
        > I think the contempt is there, because we're talking about someone's parent, and for some reason, all cultures (that I know of) picked the mother as the one being out of line. As in, when there's someone that's out of line, that has to be the woman. There's definitely contempt there, but just for the person being insulted. I think you're analyzing those kinds of insults using the wrong framework. It doesn't have much to do with women as a class, but rather with the relationship with the insulted person to his mother. Insulting someone's mother will probably get under someone's skin more than insulting their father, because (especially historically) they probably have a warmer/closer relationship with their mother due to gender roles around child-rearing.
- npteljes 4y ago
  Curses don't try to be true, they are to express frustration, or to hurt someone's feelings.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
bandie91 4y ago
"son of a b_tch" implies "son of an adulterer/fornicator"
- Etherlord87 4y ago
  This is an educated, albeit only a speculation of mine that I never confirmed: in the past (medieval times) people used to describe inferior things by comparing them to dogs like "dog's weather", "you will die like a dog" and many other sayings. It's wrong to think that your mother is being insulted by being called the "son of a bitch" (it's also pointless to censor the word as you did). What it means, or at least what it originally meant, is that you came out of a womb of a dog. In other words, if you're with your mom in a room, and someone calls you a son of a bitch, the claim is not that the woman you take for your mom is a bitch, rather, that you're wrong and your mom is actually not in the room (unless there's also a female dog in that room).

tablespoon 4y ago

The OP appears to be mostly talking about porn, but your points seem to be mostly addressing prostitution. Prostitution has long considered an disreputable and undesirable activity, and it along with other types of sex work are often tightly coupled with involuntary exploitation. A lot of the stuff that you're criticizing derives from attempts to continue to legally discourage prostitution while preventing the legal system from further punishing women who are being exploited.

gautamdivgi 4y ago
Isn’t prostitution essentially porn without the cameras? Why ostracize legal prostitution? If porn is allowed, prostitution should be too. Yes, there are issues of exploitation and licensing. They are at both places - maybe less for porn because it’s not as much in the shadows. Bring sex work out of the shadows. Just normalize it.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > Isn’t prostitution essentially porn without the cameras? Why ostracize legal prostitution? If porn is allowed, prostitution should be too. IIRC, porn would be illegal, except the performance aspect gave it First Amendment cover. It might also be significant that porn seems to have traditionally involved a 3rd party paying two people to have sex, so that's arguably not prostitution. It's probably arguably illegal prostitution if one person pays another to sex with them and films it. You can't videotape an illegal act to make it legal.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    Legal hack: Recite poetry while robbing the bank, so the first amendment protects you!
    - medstrom 4y ago
      Maybe if you also bring along a camera crew and declare at the start that this is an art piece you're doing.

s_ting765 4y ago

> One of the uncomfortable conversations that many people don't want to have is that sex work is heavily used by society and yet neglected constantly, thereby making it dangerous for both sex workers and the users, even making it more dangerous at times. I have heard this familiar argument made for the legalization of narcotics.

andrepd 4y ago

What is "funny" is that this view is held by two very different groups of people. - Moralist conservatives which despise sex work and sex workers for ideological and religious reasons - Progressives which think it's degrading and negative that somebody is forced to sell their sex to survive (which is a noble thought), and therefore think banning sex work will help that goal (we all know how that went wrt drugs...)

kylebenzle 4y ago

rurban 4y ago

> Everyone around sex workers are considered criminals. Unknowingly rent a property to a sex worker? You're a criminal. Date a sex worker? Suspected to be a criminal. Lend money to a sex worker? Criminal. Use sex work services? Definitely a criminal. Only in those third world countries where prostitution is still illegal. In the modern world not. https://prostitution.procon.org/countries-and-their-prostitution-policies/ https://prostitution.procon.org/countries-and-their-prostitu...

kodah 4y ago
If you feel so confidently in the laws of your country there's a simple exercise you can do: get an escort with the intended purpose of asking them about their experiences. If you feel fear, angst, etc, if you start googling legalities then I think you'll have a better perspective of the intricate web these policies have woven to trap people and accuse them of moral crimes.