5 ms·

It appears they both equally need each other. If TMSC rejects Apple, what is Apple going to do? Use Intel chips in iPhones?

mrweasel 4y ago
I'm half expecting Intel to start producing chips for others in the coming years. However I doubt that it's as simple as sending Intel the blueprints for the M3, there has to be some re-tooling on both ends I believe.
- Someone 4y ago
  > I’m half expecting Intel to start producing chips for others in the coming years. They announced they would do that in March 2021 (https://www.techpowerup.com/280085/intel-to-enter-third-party-foundry-business-set-up-usd-20-billion-fabs-in-arizona https://www.techpowerup.com/280085/intel-to-enter-third-part...) and have customers: - QualComm and Amazon AWS: https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22595002/intel-qualcomm-chips-foundry-services-amazon-aws-20a https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22595002/intel-qualcomm-c... - MediaTek (https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intels-foundry-services-lands-mediatek-as-a-16nm-customer https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intels-foundry-services-la...) Intel page: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/foundry/intel-foundry-services.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/foundry/intel-foundr...
petesergeant 4y ago
Say "OK, for now!", and then drop some of its gigantic cash pile into helping another supplier that it part-owns become a real competitor
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  Just because you have money, doesn't mean you can magic resources organisation and training out of nowhere. This sounds like the same neoliberal fantasy that trapped Europe into an energy crisis.
- mirzap 4y ago
  I don't think you can just drop a pile of cash and create a competitor to TSMC. Even some state actors can not achieve that. I think TSMC has leverage here, and it will have for long time to come.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    It may take time, and it may take more money than people want to spend, but I don't see how it can cost much more than half a trillion dollars, since you could just buy TSMC for less than that.
    - gizmo 4y ago
      1) TSMC is not for sale. It's of national importance to Taiwan. 2) There is only one TSMC. If you could just buy one for 500bn the EU would have bought 3 already. Building your own TSMC from scratch takes a decade, if not longer.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        If it takes a decade the time to start is now. I bet if you try the US and EU quietly tell you to stop, because Taiwan without a TSMC monopoly would be very scared.
        hollerith 4y ago
        And why do the US and European governments care more about how scared Taiwan is than the security of their access to high-end semiconductors?
        bombcar 4y ago
        Cynically I'd say it's because high-end semiconductors aren't as important to national security as people think they are.
  - rowanG077 4y ago
- hollerith 4y ago
  The Chinese government, whose cash piles are even larger, has been unsuccessfully trying to do that for decades (i.e., produce semiconductors on the Chinese mainland high-end enough to go into a notebook computer that can compete on the global market).
  - rowanG077 4y ago
    China has near cutting edge nodes. And that's without EUV. So I really wouldn't call it unsuccessful.
    - hollerith 4y ago
      Where can I buy a performant laptop or desktop with a CPU fabbed in China?
      - rowanG077 4y ago
        You can contact the vendor here: https://miner-va.com/ https://miner-va.com/ They are not desktop or laptop chips though. Targeted at miners. If you are willing you could probably reverse engineer them and do some fun stuff. But they are definitely not general purpose.
cjbgkagh 4y ago
The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if they’ll join a secret lobby agitating for war between China and Taiwan, if Apple can’t get 6% off TMSC then no-one can. Then build a US based plant subsidized with taxpayer money.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  A futuristic, high-tech variant of how Nestlé, United Fruit, and Dole use(d) gunboat diplomacy to create banana republics.
- ras3022 4y ago
  In that scenario how does Apple source all the parts made in China? They would be better off paying the 6%
  - cjbgkagh 4y ago
    It’s not just 6% it’s also losing a negotiation which is much much worse. Other suppliers will start to play hard ball, it’ll never end.
vineyardmike 4y ago
They’re not quite equal. Apple needs TSMC but not newest node tsmc. TSMC needs apple to fund newest node. But apple can’t walk away entirely, because they need something from TSMC. Apple is probably weaker because it’s likely someone else can fund the newest node for TSMC, just might take more work.

mrweasel 4y ago

I'm half expecting Intel to start producing chips for others in the coming years. However I doubt that it's as simple as sending Intel the blueprints for the M3, there has to be some re-tooling on both ends I believe.

Someone 4y ago
> I’m half expecting Intel to start producing chips for others in the coming years. They announced they would do that in March 2021 (https://www.techpowerup.com/280085/intel-to-enter-third-party-foundry-business-set-up-usd-20-billion-fabs-in-arizona https://www.techpowerup.com/280085/intel-to-enter-third-part...) and have customers: - QualComm and Amazon AWS: https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22595002/intel-qualcomm-chips-foundry-services-amazon-aws-20a https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22595002/intel-qualcomm-c... - MediaTek (https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intels-foundry-services-lands-mediatek-as-a-16nm-customer https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intels-foundry-services-la...) Intel page: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/foundry/intel-foundry-services.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/foundry/intel-foundr...

petesergeant 4y ago

Say "OK, for now!", and then drop some of its gigantic cash pile into helping another supplier that it part-owns become a real competitor

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
Just because you have money, doesn't mean you can magic resources organisation and training out of nowhere. This sounds like the same neoliberal fantasy that trapped Europe into an energy crisis.
mirzap 4y ago
I don't think you can just drop a pile of cash and create a competitor to TSMC. Even some state actors can not achieve that. I think TSMC has leverage here, and it will have for long time to come.
- bombcar 4y ago
  It may take time, and it may take more money than people want to spend, but I don't see how it can cost much more than half a trillion dollars, since you could just buy TSMC for less than that.
  - gizmo 4y ago
    1) TSMC is not for sale. It's of national importance to Taiwan. 2) There is only one TSMC. If you could just buy one for 500bn the EU would have bought 3 already. Building your own TSMC from scratch takes a decade, if not longer.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      If it takes a decade the time to start is now. I bet if you try the US and EU quietly tell you to stop, because Taiwan without a TSMC monopoly would be very scared.
      - hollerith 4y ago
        And why do the US and European governments care more about how scared Taiwan is than the security of their access to high-end semiconductors?
        bombcar 4y ago
        Cynically I'd say it's because high-end semiconductors aren't as important to national security as people think they are.
- rowanG077 4y ago
hollerith 4y ago
The Chinese government, whose cash piles are even larger, has been unsuccessfully trying to do that for decades (i.e., produce semiconductors on the Chinese mainland high-end enough to go into a notebook computer that can compete on the global market).
- rowanG077 4y ago
  China has near cutting edge nodes. And that's without EUV. So I really wouldn't call it unsuccessful.
  - hollerith 4y ago
    Where can I buy a performant laptop or desktop with a CPU fabbed in China?
    - rowanG077 4y ago
      You can contact the vendor here: https://miner-va.com/ https://miner-va.com/ They are not desktop or laptop chips though. Targeted at miners. If you are willing you could probably reverse engineer them and do some fun stuff. But they are definitely not general purpose.

cjbgkagh 4y ago

The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if they’ll join a secret lobby agitating for war between China and Taiwan, if Apple can’t get 6% off TMSC then no-one can. Then build a US based plant subsidized with taxpayer money.

Apocryphon 4y ago
A futuristic, high-tech variant of how Nestlé, United Fruit, and Dole use(d) gunboat diplomacy to create banana republics.
ras3022 4y ago
In that scenario how does Apple source all the parts made in China? They would be better off paying the 6%
- cjbgkagh 4y ago
  It’s not just 6% it’s also losing a negotiation which is much much worse. Other suppliers will start to play hard ball, it’ll never end.

vineyardmike 4y ago

They’re not quite equal. Apple needs TSMC but not newest node tsmc. TSMC needs apple to fund newest node. But apple can’t walk away entirely, because they need something from TSMC. Apple is probably weaker because it’s likely someone else can fund the newest node for TSMC, just might take more work.