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Apple has more to lose here as they've bet their future on Apple Silicons currently only manufactured at TSMC. So it is interesting to see them still trying to

Apple has more to lose here as they've bet their future on Apple Silicons currently only manufactured at TSMC. So it is interesting to see them still trying to arm-twist TSMC - would love to see their playbook as this is something they are known to do with all their suppliers.

jbverschoor 4y ago
AFAIK TSMC is operating Apple’s machines. If they want, and the contract allows, they can ship the machines somewhere else, and operate them there themselves or with another partner. It’s not like TSMC builds the machines. They just operate them, and we all know what happens to the man in the middle.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Operating them is not a trivial process. The same machines are available to other fabs, but they are behind the capabilities of TSMC.
- MangoCoffee 4y ago
  >It’s not like TSMC builds the machines. They just operate them you clearly have no idea on chip manufacturing. if foundry just operate machine then why GlobalFoundries licenses Samsung 14nm? it just operating machines, right? just operating machines, why you need to licenses the process? isn't ASML or other machine vendors cover everything you need? just operating machines required R&D on operating machines? https://techreport.com/news/26336/globalfoundries-licenses-samsung-process-tech-grants-amd-access-to-finfets/ https://techreport.com/news/26336/globalfoundries-licenses-s...
  - jbverschoor 4y ago
    Hmm.. I think I've mixed up them and other manufacturing partners.
- doikor 4y ago
  > AFAIK TSMC is operating Apple’s machines. Nah they are TSMC's machines. Really expensive ones. Apple just has bought the production of certain fab before they are built for certain amount of wavers (or time?) for X amount of money. Now TSMC is saying that due to inflation that X needs to be made bigger and thus renegotiating the contracts. (Also this paying upfront is really good for TSMC as they basically get interest free loan for building the fab) Also I think there is misconception that you could just buy a EUV lithography machines from ASML and start making chips. That is just one part (a very expensive hundreds of millions costing part) of a multistep process to make a modern microprocessor. In general it takes 3 to 4 months to go from a bare silicon wafer to a packaged chip. This is also why losing power/contamination can be really costly at a semiconductor fab as you can lose 1/4 to 1/3 of a years total production capacity even if you get the fab back to running next week.
- LegitShady 4y ago
  This is just not true.
mrweasel 4y ago
My thinking is that Apple is also the only customer that could fund the development of a competitor. I doubt that Apple would want to run their own fab, but they could help fund the development of 3nm at either GlobalFoundries or Intel.
- adam_arthur 4y ago
  Yes, surely that costs less than a 6% price hike

jbverschoor 4y ago

AFAIK TSMC is operating Apple’s machines. If they want, and the contract allows, they can ship the machines somewhere else, and operate them there themselves or with another partner. It’s not like TSMC builds the machines. They just operate them, and we all know what happens to the man in the middle.

kube-system 4y ago
Operating them is not a trivial process. The same machines are available to other fabs, but they are behind the capabilities of TSMC.
MangoCoffee 4y ago
>It’s not like TSMC builds the machines. They just operate them you clearly have no idea on chip manufacturing. if foundry just operate machine then why GlobalFoundries licenses Samsung 14nm? it just operating machines, right? just operating machines, why you need to licenses the process? isn't ASML or other machine vendors cover everything you need? just operating machines required R&D on operating machines? https://techreport.com/news/26336/globalfoundries-licenses-samsung-process-tech-grants-amd-access-to-finfets/ https://techreport.com/news/26336/globalfoundries-licenses-s...
- jbverschoor 4y ago
  Hmm.. I think I've mixed up them and other manufacturing partners.
doikor 4y ago
> AFAIK TSMC is operating Apple’s machines. Nah they are TSMC's machines. Really expensive ones. Apple just has bought the production of certain fab before they are built for certain amount of wavers (or time?) for X amount of money. Now TSMC is saying that due to inflation that X needs to be made bigger and thus renegotiating the contracts. (Also this paying upfront is really good for TSMC as they basically get interest free loan for building the fab) Also I think there is misconception that you could just buy a EUV lithography machines from ASML and start making chips. That is just one part (a very expensive hundreds of millions costing part) of a multistep process to make a modern microprocessor. In general it takes 3 to 4 months to go from a bare silicon wafer to a packaged chip. This is also why losing power/contamination can be really costly at a semiconductor fab as you can lose 1/4 to 1/3 of a years total production capacity even if you get the fab back to running next week.
LegitShady 4y ago
This is just not true.

mrweasel 4y ago

My thinking is that Apple is also the only customer that could fund the development of a competitor. I doubt that Apple would want to run their own fab, but they could help fund the development of 3nm at either GlobalFoundries or Intel.

adam_arthur 4y ago
Yes, surely that costs less than a 6% price hike