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Do you have rationale supporting the hand of the Church in fascist regimes? The Catholic Church expressed its rejection of fascism via the strongest possible ch

Do you have rationale supporting the hand of the Church in fascist regimes? The Catholic Church expressed its rejection of fascism via the strongest possible channel: an encyclic written by Pius XI in 1937, _Mit Brennender Sorge_, was read during the Sunday mass in all churches of Germany although the Nazis were already repressing opponents. Even more: according to statistical studies, out of many socioeconomic variables, being Catholic had the strongest positive correlation with _not_ voting for the Nazis [1]. [1]: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/spenkuch/research/religion_nazis.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiX3rWw9bb6AhUE3hoKHWYlB4wQFnoECAsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw28WM-QKyooC2PzjwXPpJSQ https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/...

trasz 4y ago
An encyclic is just a marketing material. What matters is what they actually did. The Vatican was gifted to Church by… fascists.
- Thorrez 4y ago
  >In Weimar Germany, the Catholic Church vehemently warned ordinary parishioners about the dangers of extremist parties. Is that doing something?
  - trasz 4y ago
    Nah, that’s just talk. Doing something is cooperating with fascists (Lateran Pacts), supporting Catholic-Nazi regimes (Franco, Tiso, and many others), and helping Nazis evade justice (ratlines).
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    It's no different than the current day catholic church saying "oh gays are people too we should treat them nicely" and then remind you that the bible says sinners spend eternity in hellfire and sort of wink at the American evangelicals that spend their time screaming that the bible says gay people are an abomination.
Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
Regardless of what the encyclic said, the truth is that in Spain the Church closely colaborated with the fascist Franco regime, to the point that in many practical respects they were one and the same. There is ample evidence that you can find with some obvious Googling, but I think this image is a good visual summary: https://www.gettyimages.es/detail/fotografía-de-noticias/general-franciso-franco-the-dictator-of-spain-fotografía-de-noticias/613515050?adppopup=true https://www.gettyimages.es/detail/fotografía-de-noticias/gen... This is how the Catholic Church treated Franco (not sporadically, but as a custom, you can find plenty of images like that): under a canopy, like they do with images of Saints or the Virgin. I think in the face of that, anyone will agree that encyclic was not worth the paper it was written on.
- axiomsEnd 4y ago
  You also has Ustasě in Croatia and Josef Tiso in Slovakia. On the other hand - although Catholic higher-ups were generally spared, not the same could be said about other priests in Poland (like Kolbe) . During 2 WW, it's hard to treat Catholicism as a one religion, because it was very important to put it into national-ideological context of the country. Most often church was supporting more conservative, right-leaning groups, as a contra to socialist, who were much more anticlerical then.
- aubanel 4y ago
  Sorry, I should have made it clear from the start that I was regarding nazy Germany and fascist Italy as the "fascist regimes", Franco's Spain being fascist is debated (seems to have changed throughout time, see [1]). Interesting point for Spain though, direct religious implication in governments always seems to go wrong. Coming back to the encyclic, I think it did have an impact, judging by the measurable refusal of Nazism in Catholic counties as mentioned in my previous comment. The Catholic Church had strong moral authority, and this kind of condemnation was rare: the Red Cross for instance did not raise any [2]. [1]: https://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=5263342 https://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=5263342 [2]: https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/6ayg86.htm https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/6ayg86.... Edit: grammar.
axiomsEnd 4y ago
Germany had issues with Catholics long before III Reich. Check the Kulturkampf under Bismarck - it had a stong national element, as Catholicism was tied to Poles, and Poles and their interest in Silesia weren't exactly liked by German authoroties.
emptyfile 4y ago
Never heard of clero-fascism? Most Catholics haven't. I guess they don't mention it often in our history books here in Europe. You can start your education here, I know of it because its my country, but I'm sure its only the tip of the iceberg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Usta%C5%A1e https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_wi... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_fascism

trasz 4y ago

An encyclic is just a marketing material. What matters is what they actually did. The Vatican was gifted to Church by… fascists.

Thorrez 4y ago
>In Weimar Germany, the Catholic Church vehemently warned ordinary parishioners about the dangers of extremist parties. Is that doing something?
- trasz 4y ago
  Nah, that’s just talk. Doing something is cooperating with fascists (Lateran Pacts), supporting Catholic-Nazi regimes (Franco, Tiso, and many others), and helping Nazis evade justice (ratlines).
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  It's no different than the current day catholic church saying "oh gays are people too we should treat them nicely" and then remind you that the bible says sinners spend eternity in hellfire and sort of wink at the American evangelicals that spend their time screaming that the bible says gay people are an abomination.

Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago

Regardless of what the encyclic said, the truth is that in Spain the Church closely colaborated with the fascist Franco regime, to the point that in many practical respects they were one and the same. There is ample evidence that you can find with some obvious Googling, but I think this image is a good visual summary: https://www.gettyimages.es/detail/fotografía-de-noticias/general-franciso-franco-the-dictator-of-spain-fotografía-de-noticias/613515050?adppopup=true https://www.gettyimages.es/detail/fotografía-de-noticias/gen... This is how the Catholic Church treated Franco (not sporadically, but as a custom, you can find plenty of images like that): under a canopy, like they do with images of Saints or the Virgin. I think in the face of that, anyone will agree that encyclic was not worth the paper it was written on.

axiomsEnd 4y ago
You also has Ustasě in Croatia and Josef Tiso in Slovakia. On the other hand - although Catholic higher-ups were generally spared, not the same could be said about other priests in Poland (like Kolbe) . During 2 WW, it's hard to treat Catholicism as a one religion, because it was very important to put it into national-ideological context of the country. Most often church was supporting more conservative, right-leaning groups, as a contra to socialist, who were much more anticlerical then.
aubanel 4y ago
Sorry, I should have made it clear from the start that I was regarding nazy Germany and fascist Italy as the "fascist regimes", Franco's Spain being fascist is debated (seems to have changed throughout time, see [1]). Interesting point for Spain though, direct religious implication in governments always seems to go wrong. Coming back to the encyclic, I think it did have an impact, judging by the measurable refusal of Nazism in Catholic counties as mentioned in my previous comment. The Catholic Church had strong moral authority, and this kind of condemnation was rare: the Red Cross for instance did not raise any [2]. [1]: https://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=5263342 https://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=5263342 [2]: https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/6ayg86.htm https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/6ayg86.... Edit: grammar.

axiomsEnd 4y ago

Germany had issues with Catholics long before III Reich. Check the Kulturkampf under Bismarck - it had a stong national element, as Catholicism was tied to Poles, and Poles and their interest in Silesia weren't exactly liked by German authoroties.

emptyfile 4y ago

Never heard of clero-fascism? Most Catholics haven't. I guess they don't mention it often in our history books here in Europe. You can start your education here, I know of it because its my country, but I'm sure its only the tip of the iceberg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Usta%C5%A1e https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_wi... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_fascism