4 ms·

I am very much not a beginner and I don't find whitespace sensitive languages hard to read. I don't find Lisp hard to read either. Or C-style languages for that

I am very much not a beginner and I don't find whitespace sensitive languages hard to read. I don't find Lisp hard to read either. Or C-style languages for that matter. The sheer passion people have towards whitespace vs brackets vs parenthesis makes me question their sanity.

TheRealPomax 4y ago
Congrats: you are an outlier. That's pretty cool, and it means you can read a lot of code quite easily, which I'm sure lets you be more productive than most, but you are not like most other people.
- sweezyjeezy 4y ago
  Are you sure this an outlier opinion amongst regular python users?
  - p1necone 4y ago
    Well no, I imagine that that group would somewhat self select for developers who are okay with reading whitespace based syntax. Someone who finds it hard to read is probably not going to become a regular user of the language unless they have to.
    - sweezyjeezy 4y ago
      Python is lingua franca in data science / ML, i.e. you pretty much do have to to work in the field. In my experience the people who complain about this aspect of python are those just starting out. Dependency management would be an example of a real Python issue, not a "everyone gets used to it" one IMO.
      - OrderlyTiamat 4y ago
        I use python extensively, and whitespace very much is an actual issue. Not a big one, but it is annoying every once in a while e.g. when copying code. Especially as autoindenting is very much hampered in that case, because the editor can't tell what the indent is supposed to be if multiple options are valid python. Dealing with braces instead is much easier. Not a deal-breaker or major issue, but an annoyance nonetheless.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - TheRealPomax 4y ago
    Why would a python programmer have any understanding of code that's full of pointers and memory addresses? You show someone who started on Python, and still uses it today, real product C code and their eyes glaze over real fast.
    - sweezyjeezy 4y ago
      I think you replied to the wrong person.
- kjeetgill 4y ago
  I think this is one of those silent majority situations. Almost all programmers can read a C-like language because well, that covers like 95% of languages by use. You have C/C++/Java/Go/JS/Kotlin/Rust/zig/C# etc. BUT second to that in sheer use is probably Python. Almost everyone (that I know) has touched it atleast a bit whether its dev scripts, tooling, scientific work (bio, cv, etc.), robotics, mech engineers, ml/ai space etc. Why would anyone nitpick to death tools that have so much ubiquity? Well they'd have to have a narrow focus to even consider it. The majority of algebra users never second guess +, *, ^, (), etc. I'd say lisp is probably the hardest to get used to combine with the least frequent to cross your path. And then there's a long tail of bash/ruby styles, tcl, ocaml, etc etc.
  - TheRealPomax 4y ago
    I think this is a dangerous assumptions to make: the last time I looked at C was 30 years ago, you show me real C code with pointers and references and namespaces and I couldn't tell you wtf was going on if my life depended on it. With a few weeks of study to "re"learn C and/or C++? Sure, they're just programming languages. But right off the bat? No idea what the hell is going on in real, production C code.
    - Entinel 4y ago
      This is my point though. People just complain about whatever syntax they aren't used to using but none of them are inherently more difficult to read.
      - TheRealPomax 4y ago
        None of them are inherently more difficult to _learn_ but they sure as hell are more difficult to read when everything's peppered with :: and * and &.
        Entinel 4y ago
        That's a matter of opinion and one I disagree with.
- Planktonne 4y ago
  In my experience, people who struggle with different syntax conventions are the outliers; if you can handle the idea of brackets generally (as we all do regularly), then you can deal with one set of conventions. Similarly, if you can grasp the concept of a paragraph, or of bullet points, or a bunch of other things in normal text that convey meaning through whitespace, then you can deal with another. It's only code that (some) people complain about this with. In every other context, we all know that we can work with syntax based either on brackets or spacing. Just in normal communication, all humans deal with a dizzying array of complex conventions without even thinking about it. The reluctance to use whitespace-sensitive languages (or the other way around) is learned helplessness, rather than a widespread inadequacy.

TheRealPomax 4y ago

Congrats: you are an outlier. That's pretty cool, and it means you can read a lot of code quite easily, which I'm sure lets you be more productive than most, but you are not like most other people.

sweezyjeezy 4y ago
Are you sure this an outlier opinion amongst regular python users?
- p1necone 4y ago
  Well no, I imagine that that group would somewhat self select for developers who are okay with reading whitespace based syntax. Someone who finds it hard to read is probably not going to become a regular user of the language unless they have to.
  - sweezyjeezy 4y ago
    Python is lingua franca in data science / ML, i.e. you pretty much do have to to work in the field. In my experience the people who complain about this aspect of python are those just starting out. Dependency management would be an example of a real Python issue, not a "everyone gets used to it" one IMO.
    - OrderlyTiamat 4y ago
      I use python extensively, and whitespace very much is an actual issue. Not a big one, but it is annoying every once in a while e.g. when copying code. Especially as autoindenting is very much hampered in that case, because the editor can't tell what the indent is supposed to be if multiple options are valid python. Dealing with braces instead is much easier. Not a deal-breaker or major issue, but an annoyance nonetheless.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- TheRealPomax 4y ago
  Why would a python programmer have any understanding of code that's full of pointers and memory addresses? You show someone who started on Python, and still uses it today, real product C code and their eyes glaze over real fast.
  - sweezyjeezy 4y ago
    I think you replied to the wrong person.
kjeetgill 4y ago
I think this is one of those silent majority situations. Almost all programmers can read a C-like language because well, that covers like 95% of languages by use. You have C/C++/Java/Go/JS/Kotlin/Rust/zig/C# etc. BUT second to that in sheer use is probably Python. Almost everyone (that I know) has touched it atleast a bit whether its dev scripts, tooling, scientific work (bio, cv, etc.), robotics, mech engineers, ml/ai space etc. Why would anyone nitpick to death tools that have so much ubiquity? Well they'd have to have a narrow focus to even consider it. The majority of algebra users never second guess +, *, ^, (), etc. I'd say lisp is probably the hardest to get used to combine with the least frequent to cross your path. And then there's a long tail of bash/ruby styles, tcl, ocaml, etc etc.
- TheRealPomax 4y ago
  I think this is a dangerous assumptions to make: the last time I looked at C was 30 years ago, you show me real C code with pointers and references and namespaces and I couldn't tell you wtf was going on if my life depended on it. With a few weeks of study to "re"learn C and/or C++? Sure, they're just programming languages. But right off the bat? No idea what the hell is going on in real, production C code.
  - Entinel 4y ago
    This is my point though. People just complain about whatever syntax they aren't used to using but none of them are inherently more difficult to read.
    - TheRealPomax 4y ago
      None of them are inherently more difficult to _learn_ but they sure as hell are more difficult to read when everything's peppered with :: and * and &.
      - Entinel 4y ago
        That's a matter of opinion and one I disagree with.
Planktonne 4y ago
In my experience, people who struggle with different syntax conventions are the outliers; if you can handle the idea of brackets generally (as we all do regularly), then you can deal with one set of conventions. Similarly, if you can grasp the concept of a paragraph, or of bullet points, or a bunch of other things in normal text that convey meaning through whitespace, then you can deal with another. It's only code that (some) people complain about this with. In every other context, we all know that we can work with syntax based either on brackets or spacing. Just in normal communication, all humans deal with a dizzying array of complex conventions without even thinking about it. The reluctance to use whitespace-sensitive languages (or the other way around) is learned helplessness, rather than a widespread inadequacy.