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Is JMAP actually used anywhere outside of fastmail? As far as I can tell everything is IMAP, and JMAP is not even on the radar.

nicoburns 4y ago
Not that widely I don’t think, but there was a post about an open source JMAP implementation on HN a few days ago,
ocdtrekkie 4y ago
Essentially the core problem is Gmail is most of the market, and they have a vested interest in keeping people interacting with their proprietary APIs (lock in) rather than switching to an open standard that supports labels, snooze, etc. Startups literally build custom clients entirely around the Gmail API, which means more data to Google. And if Gmail doesn't support JMAP, why would anyone else bother adding it to their app? Monopolies remain the primary blocker on innovation and until we get aggressive about forcing them to use open standards and interoperability, we are going to stay stuck in situations like this one.
- awinter-py 4y ago
  I think fastmail is trying for an 'everyone supports this standard except for you' strategy could work, I feel like the bigger question is 'will email still be the standard' in 5 years -- it has iffy security, it's complex, nobody can self host it, it doesn't integrate well with other applications (i.e. 'push messaging' features)
  - broodbucket 4y ago
    If we haven't gotten rid of asking users for postal addresses when there is no chance they will ever be used, we are absolutely never getting rid of email. It's decentralised, there's a paper trail that doesn't disappear when a host goes down or gets compromised, and it's still a competent method of asynchronous communication. Plus, the whole world is never going to agree on the same new thing anyway.
    - awinter-py 4y ago
      yeah I'm not certain you're wrong but I think your point about postal addresses is important part of the reason we still require snail mail for legal process is dumb legacy stuff, but the other part is that email isn't a good replacement
broodbucket 4y ago
Not yet, but that's how these things work. Gotta do a lot of showing off yourself before anyone else starts to care. Standards are hard to displace, at least with email there's the attractive motivation that everything else is ancient and awful. We're probably at least 5-10 years away from JMAP having some proliferation, if everything goes well.
Gigachad 4y ago
Everything is not IMAP. Everything is proprietary JSON APIs. Gmail, Outlook, etc are not using IMAP because IMAP is unusable these days. Fastmail is essentially the same thing but with an effort to share the work.
- noughts 4y ago
  Could you say a few more words about why IMAP is unusable these days? Thank you Gigachad!
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    There was a post I read a while ago detailing it but I forgot where. The gist of it is that it’s a custom protocol and format that goes back decades. These days clients try to implement lots of features client side that were not imagined back when the protocol was created so it involves massively inefficient actions. I forget the exact action described but I believe it was renaming a folder requires downloading every email in the folder and then uploading them all in individual requests which takes minutes. Stuff like this plague the protocol and hold back email clients. Rather than spending dev time building the best client, they waste it wrestling a protocol that has long outlived its usefulness.
  - Mailtemi 4y ago
    JMAP is sane, performant and easy to implement. To check for new email and resync email state with IMAP should make separate call for each folder. Even if the app tries to sync multiple folders simultaneously, the server often has a limit of max 2 connection. With JMAP this can be done in a single call. Microsoft's MSGraph API is similar but riddled with inner HTTP (429) errors in batch calls. This needs extra logic to handle all cases.
  - Avamander 4y ago
    IMAP IDLE only allows you to monitor a single folder and it's bad for anything battery-powered - yet people want proper notifications about the mail they receive. Nobody implements IMAP NOTIFY which would fix this part for at least desktop PC's. There's also the silly notion that a single letter has to exist in a single folder (may only have a single label). Plus all the concurrency issues with multiple clients accessing the same mailbox.
core-utility 4y ago
Technically yes, but functionally no. https://jmap.io/software.html https://jmap.io/software.html

nicoburns 4y ago

Not that widely I don’t think, but there was a post about an open source JMAP implementation on HN a few days ago,

ocdtrekkie 4y ago

Essentially the core problem is Gmail is most of the market, and they have a vested interest in keeping people interacting with their proprietary APIs (lock in) rather than switching to an open standard that supports labels, snooze, etc. Startups literally build custom clients entirely around the Gmail API, which means more data to Google. And if Gmail doesn't support JMAP, why would anyone else bother adding it to their app? Monopolies remain the primary blocker on innovation and until we get aggressive about forcing them to use open standards and interoperability, we are going to stay stuck in situations like this one.

awinter-py 4y ago
I think fastmail is trying for an 'everyone supports this standard except for you' strategy could work, I feel like the bigger question is 'will email still be the standard' in 5 years -- it has iffy security, it's complex, nobody can self host it, it doesn't integrate well with other applications (i.e. 'push messaging' features)
- broodbucket 4y ago
  If we haven't gotten rid of asking users for postal addresses when there is no chance they will ever be used, we are absolutely never getting rid of email. It's decentralised, there's a paper trail that doesn't disappear when a host goes down or gets compromised, and it's still a competent method of asynchronous communication. Plus, the whole world is never going to agree on the same new thing anyway.
  - awinter-py 4y ago
    yeah I'm not certain you're wrong but I think your point about postal addresses is important part of the reason we still require snail mail for legal process is dumb legacy stuff, but the other part is that email isn't a good replacement

broodbucket 4y ago

Not yet, but that's how these things work. Gotta do a lot of showing off yourself before anyone else starts to care. Standards are hard to displace, at least with email there's the attractive motivation that everything else is ancient and awful. We're probably at least 5-10 years away from JMAP having some proliferation, if everything goes well.

Gigachad 4y ago

Everything is not IMAP. Everything is proprietary JSON APIs. Gmail, Outlook, etc are not using IMAP because IMAP is unusable these days. Fastmail is essentially the same thing but with an effort to share the work.

noughts 4y ago
Could you say a few more words about why IMAP is unusable these days? Thank you Gigachad!
- Gigachad 4y ago
  There was a post I read a while ago detailing it but I forgot where. The gist of it is that it’s a custom protocol and format that goes back decades. These days clients try to implement lots of features client side that were not imagined back when the protocol was created so it involves massively inefficient actions. I forget the exact action described but I believe it was renaming a folder requires downloading every email in the folder and then uploading them all in individual requests which takes minutes. Stuff like this plague the protocol and hold back email clients. Rather than spending dev time building the best client, they waste it wrestling a protocol that has long outlived its usefulness.
- Mailtemi 4y ago
  JMAP is sane, performant and easy to implement. To check for new email and resync email state with IMAP should make separate call for each folder. Even if the app tries to sync multiple folders simultaneously, the server often has a limit of max 2 connection. With JMAP this can be done in a single call. Microsoft's MSGraph API is similar but riddled with inner HTTP (429) errors in batch calls. This needs extra logic to handle all cases.
- Avamander 4y ago
  IMAP IDLE only allows you to monitor a single folder and it's bad for anything battery-powered - yet people want proper notifications about the mail they receive. Nobody implements IMAP NOTIFY which would fix this part for at least desktop PC's. There's also the silly notion that a single letter has to exist in a single folder (may only have a single label). Plus all the concurrency issues with multiple clients accessing the same mailbox.

core-utility 4y ago

Technically yes, but functionally no. https://jmap.io/software.html https://jmap.io/software.html