3 ms·

Seems to me it's mostly empty space with menus on top. To me, the essence of video games is that play takes place in an interesting space, where terrain matter

Seems to me it's mostly empty space with menus on top. To me, the essence of video games is that play takes place in an interesting space, where terrain matters and a variety of things occupy it. It would be trivial to recreate the EVE experience in literally any MMO by just having permadeath. And then most other MMOs would be better than EVE because they actually have worlds with stuff in them. Or maybe they don't and it's just a thin facade, in which case I simply recommend playing better games. Am I missing something?

GauntletWizard 4y ago
You're not wrong, you're just not the target audience. It's not for visual thinkers. Eve Online is a spreadsheet simulator in so many ways, but for the people who enjoy those spreadsheets, whether they be market buy/sell prices or times of day that idiots in blinged out ratting ships are playing, that's what keeps them going. The space theme is pretty, but not really the point. The harshness of the universe is the point. The empty expanse is thematically nice but not important to the enjoyment.
- trynewideas 4y ago
  > It's not for visual thinkers. As a MUD vet - and recognizing how much MMORPG dynamics borrow back from MUDs - I think it's more about the differences in mechanics and social dynamics than "visual thinking". The interface and interactions are about as abstract and obtuse, and the focus on player-driven events in real time over scripted storylines is similar. But for me, there are MUDs that are more creative and proactive. Between re-rolling and no-PK MUDs, failure/death often has few or no stakes early in MUDs. Remorts recycle the player base, so on older active servers there experienced players are often in new-character zones. Building mechanics are more open-ended but also not mandatory for success. EVE always plays more linear and reactive. There are and have been MUDs like that, but it's not monolithic - they aren't the only "non-visual" type of MUD. EVE guides players into corps and other orgs, which by design leads to hierarchical play. A new capsuleer is about even with or less than an NPC to most EVE players. There are few incentives to meaningfully help new players or new characters, outside of making them more useful laborers for your corp. Investing time, effort, and optionally money eventually rewards you as a player, but until then you accomplish and contribute very little. So I'd say EVE is more for players who want to play the proverbial long game, with winners and losers, and stakes of economy and influence above all others. That's not something that can be pinned on the visuals or the spreadsheet UI. In that sense it's honestly more like Football Manager but with real people as the footballers that get shuffled around and appeased in order to help you win.
roganartu 4y ago
There is a lot of empty space in EVE, but there's also a lot of activity. The fact that your empty space can rapidly turn hostile forces you to take a certain approach to gameplay that I've yet to experience in any other game. I used to live in wormhole space, which feels even more empty than regular EVE space as there is no "local chat" listings of people in the same system as you. Corps that live in wormhole space generally just assume that there are cloaked spies everywhere (and they're usually right). I also don't think permadeath is a reasonable parallel. Your pilot's skills in EVE are not lost on death, and these are required to pilot certain ships as well as gating some other things in game. XP for these skills are simply gained over time from a queue. On death, you respawn as a new clone, retaining all your skills but losing all the physical possessions you had on you at time of death. These have an in-game monetary value, which is where the desire to avoid dying comes from. There are two categories of possession you can lose this way: your ship and everything in/on it (called the fitting), and your implants. Implants augment your skills, and can be rather expensive. Once they are inserted, they cannot be removed without being destroyed, so it's quite common for people to go out and have fun in cheap ships after losing an expensive clone before later reinserting expensive implants again. I miss EVE too, but I also simply don't have time to give my old characters the justice they deserve anymore.
- shultays 4y ago
  In my experience EVE online was hours (days?) of boringness for a relatively small amount of extreme fun
  - 2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
    This. I was there when BoB fell, and despite being on the losing side those weeks of intense battles were _awesome_. That was it, though. Nullsec warfare became a rather tedious grind shortly afterwards, and CCP didn't bother to fix it, instead prefering to focus on microtransactions. I assume my characters are still sitting in Amamake a decade later, but getting back into a game only to have it feel like a second job? Narh, I prefer playing Civ6 with the missus instead. Most of the people I played with quit anyway.
meheleventyone 4y ago
Yeah all the failed projects that thought they could “just add permadeath”. One of the amazing things about EVE is that although it looks quite bare at first blush there is an interesting space, where terrain matters and a variety of things occupy it. Far more so than most games because there is an entire player run political layer on top of it all. The only game that’s really felt as close to a second existence to me has been Ultima Online.
JCharante 4y ago
Yes you're missing it. Every item is player made (few exceptions in recent years). This means if you're a warrior in combat you have a ship with like 20 items that were all hand-made, and to build the ship itself it went through 6 different stages and the raw materials probably changed hands 12 times. Logistics is everything too. Bad freight logistics loses wars.
unoti 4y ago
> It would be trivial to recreate the EVE experience in literally any MMO by just having permadeath… Am I missing something? Yes, a few things. Claiming territory and political hierarchy are other missing elements from essentially all other MMO’s. You can claim ownership of territory in Eve. You can then set up an alliance or parent/child relationships between guilds, such that a territory is owned by a group of cooperating guilds. This political hieraechy/network controls who shows up as “red” or attackable. Also you’d need to add full looting of gear on people you defeat, as well as harvesting of their bodies for salvage. Another aspect missing from other mmo’s is transport logistics. Also the fact that literally every ship, weapon, and piece of ammo is created by players and transported by players with buy and sell orders in a maketplace. In short, it’s radically and fully different from any other MMO.
trynewideas 4y ago
You're both right, just for each of your own audiences. It's the greatest MMO ever for people who appreciate high-stakes play, cutthroat communities, and rewarding significant investments of time over a long period. And it's a boring, empty, ugly, poorly designed slog for new players who duck in for a two-week trial, connect with nobody, accomplish or witness nothing that's player-driven (because almost all of it happens outside of where new players can even reach), have a terrible or dull first <10 hours, and realize they'd rather play something that frontloads more of the rewarding gameplay and punishes failure less.

GauntletWizard 4y ago

You're not wrong, you're just not the target audience. It's not for visual thinkers. Eve Online is a spreadsheet simulator in so many ways, but for the people who enjoy those spreadsheets, whether they be market buy/sell prices or times of day that idiots in blinged out ratting ships are playing, that's what keeps them going. The space theme is pretty, but not really the point. The harshness of the universe is the point. The empty expanse is thematically nice but not important to the enjoyment.

trynewideas 4y ago
> It's not for visual thinkers. As a MUD vet - and recognizing how much MMORPG dynamics borrow back from MUDs - I think it's more about the differences in mechanics and social dynamics than "visual thinking". The interface and interactions are about as abstract and obtuse, and the focus on player-driven events in real time over scripted storylines is similar. But for me, there are MUDs that are more creative and proactive. Between re-rolling and no-PK MUDs, failure/death often has few or no stakes early in MUDs. Remorts recycle the player base, so on older active servers there experienced players are often in new-character zones. Building mechanics are more open-ended but also not mandatory for success. EVE always plays more linear and reactive. There are and have been MUDs like that, but it's not monolithic - they aren't the only "non-visual" type of MUD. EVE guides players into corps and other orgs, which by design leads to hierarchical play. A new capsuleer is about even with or less than an NPC to most EVE players. There are few incentives to meaningfully help new players or new characters, outside of making them more useful laborers for your corp. Investing time, effort, and optionally money eventually rewards you as a player, but until then you accomplish and contribute very little. So I'd say EVE is more for players who want to play the proverbial long game, with winners and losers, and stakes of economy and influence above all others. That's not something that can be pinned on the visuals or the spreadsheet UI. In that sense it's honestly more like Football Manager but with real people as the footballers that get shuffled around and appeased in order to help you win.

roganartu 4y ago

There is a lot of empty space in EVE, but there's also a lot of activity. The fact that your empty space can rapidly turn hostile forces you to take a certain approach to gameplay that I've yet to experience in any other game. I used to live in wormhole space, which feels even more empty than regular EVE space as there is no "local chat" listings of people in the same system as you. Corps that live in wormhole space generally just assume that there are cloaked spies everywhere (and they're usually right). I also don't think permadeath is a reasonable parallel. Your pilot's skills in EVE are not lost on death, and these are required to pilot certain ships as well as gating some other things in game. XP for these skills are simply gained over time from a queue. On death, you respawn as a new clone, retaining all your skills but losing all the physical possessions you had on you at time of death. These have an in-game monetary value, which is where the desire to avoid dying comes from. There are two categories of possession you can lose this way: your ship and everything in/on it (called the fitting), and your implants. Implants augment your skills, and can be rather expensive. Once they are inserted, they cannot be removed without being destroyed, so it's quite common for people to go out and have fun in cheap ships after losing an expensive clone before later reinserting expensive implants again. I miss EVE too, but I also simply don't have time to give my old characters the justice they deserve anymore.

shultays 4y ago
In my experience EVE online was hours (days?) of boringness for a relatively small amount of extreme fun
- 2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
  This. I was there when BoB fell, and despite being on the losing side those weeks of intense battles were _awesome_. That was it, though. Nullsec warfare became a rather tedious grind shortly afterwards, and CCP didn't bother to fix it, instead prefering to focus on microtransactions. I assume my characters are still sitting in Amamake a decade later, but getting back into a game only to have it feel like a second job? Narh, I prefer playing Civ6 with the missus instead. Most of the people I played with quit anyway.

meheleventyone 4y ago

Yeah all the failed projects that thought they could “just add permadeath”. One of the amazing things about EVE is that although it looks quite bare at first blush there is an interesting space, where terrain matters and a variety of things occupy it. Far more so than most games because there is an entire player run political layer on top of it all. The only game that’s really felt as close to a second existence to me has been Ultima Online.

JCharante 4y ago

Yes you're missing it. Every item is player made (few exceptions in recent years). This means if you're a warrior in combat you have a ship with like 20 items that were all hand-made, and to build the ship itself it went through 6 different stages and the raw materials probably changed hands 12 times. Logistics is everything too. Bad freight logistics loses wars.

unoti 4y ago

> It would be trivial to recreate the EVE experience in literally any MMO by just having permadeath… Am I missing something? Yes, a few things. Claiming territory and political hierarchy are other missing elements from essentially all other MMO’s. You can claim ownership of territory in Eve. You can then set up an alliance or parent/child relationships between guilds, such that a territory is owned by a group of cooperating guilds. This political hieraechy/network controls who shows up as “red” or attackable. Also you’d need to add full looting of gear on people you defeat, as well as harvesting of their bodies for salvage. Another aspect missing from other mmo’s is transport logistics. Also the fact that literally every ship, weapon, and piece of ammo is created by players and transported by players with buy and sell orders in a maketplace. In short, it’s radically and fully different from any other MMO.

trynewideas 4y ago

You're both right, just for each of your own audiences. It's the greatest MMO ever for people who appreciate high-stakes play, cutthroat communities, and rewarding significant investments of time over a long period. And it's a boring, empty, ugly, poorly designed slog for new players who duck in for a two-week trial, connect with nobody, accomplish or witness nothing that's player-driven (because almost all of it happens outside of where new players can even reach), have a terrible or dull first <10 hours, and realize they'd rather play something that frontloads more of the rewarding gameplay and punishes failure less.