6 ms·

California jobs required to post pay range starting 2023

43 points by joe-collins 4y ago

morpheos137 4y ago
In my experience pay is not a good proxy for the value an employee brings to a company or society. I think society would be better with pay based on the job description for most jobs vs. the company or the individual employee.
- ElfinTrousers 4y ago
  On the other hand, pay does tend to be a good proxy for whether I can afford rent and groceries, so it's not entirely without interest.
alvatech 4y ago
I've recently seen that many job postings do include pay ranges. However, they only provide the base wage range; joining bonuses and stock grants are not included. I don't believe that this bill requires employers to report the full range of pay.
- singron 4y ago
  Honestly employers have been kneecapping themselves with this. E.g. Google job posts usually post base salary for L3 even if the listing is obviously for L5/L6. The total comp is like 2.5x the advertised amount. Why wouldn't they try to put the biggest number they can get away with?
  - almost_usual 4y ago
    > Why wouldn't they try to put the biggest number they can get away with? They don’t need to, people already know.
  - shapefrog 4y ago
    > Why wouldn't they try to put the biggest number they can get away with It is unusual in a negotiation to offer to pay the largest amount possible as your opening bid - they do it so they can pay the smallest number they can get away with. If there is someone amazing that they want to pay $25mil to - they wouldnt be advertising the role.
- almost_usual 4y ago
  Stock grants and bonuses aren’t guaranteed to be worth anything. On the flip side someone who joined a company at the right time (pre-covid?) might have a stock grant worth much more than a new hire.
majestik 4y ago
This is a step in the right direction for equitable pay. Ideally would include full compensation be posted though, stocks, etc.
- tomcam 4y ago
  What is equitable pay?
  - whb07 4y ago
    Places swanky enough to offer stocks and benefits. The idea that all are equally lined up against the wall for quick execution. Typically happens at swanky/rich companies leading up to more “equity/inclusion” pushed down your throat.
  - sneak 4y ago
    Equitable pay is pay both the employer and the employee mutually agree upon. Everything else is agenda-based.
    - pxmpxm 4y ago
      I'm pretty sure that's the point the parent was trying to illustrate. "Equitable pay" is a merely a political narrative for left leaning audiences - postmodernist talking points always require victims, after all.
      - claudiawerner 4y ago
        People have been arguing for "equitable pay" since before the word 'postmodernist' ever entered the English lexicon. In general, equitable pay for a job would entail that no two people are paid differently on the basis of certain characteristics we might deem irrelevant (and this basket of characteristics varies depending on who you ask). Further, economists, political scientists, and philosophers alike have written on the topic of what is equitable in a capitalist economy, and in terms of distributive justice; there are very few people who would define equitability as the mere existence of an agreement between parties, including the legal system (for example, some contracts can and are deemed unconscionable, and selling organs or oneself into slavery are illegal).
philihp 4y ago
Good
egberts1 4y ago
What difference does it make if the pay range is far greater than the inequity of actual pay gap?
lacker 4y ago
Pay ranges are often not helpful because there's no standard for which jobs are a "single role". For example tech companies are often mandated to post ranges for H1B positions, but they can get away posting unhelpful things like "the pay range is $50k-$900k". Far more useful, in the tech industry at least, is to look at websites that show you pay ranges specific to the job level. For example: https://levels.fyi https://levels.fyi
- anthlax 4y ago
  Levels mixes location which kind of sucks - for example, Google’s non-negotiated pay bands for entry level are 220k - 157k depending on location. That’s an incredibly wide gap - > the standard US citizens salary. Levels takes the average of those numbers so the usefulness dwindles.
Mountain_Skies 4y ago
It's been nice seeing the pay range for remote jobs added to postings, even if they claim the range is only valid in Colorado. Even if pay is somewhat different elsewhere (it probably shouldn't be for remote), at least you know if you're in a Major League ballpark or the local YMCA dirt lot. I did recently see a job posting by IBM that stated that Colorado applicants could email a particular email address, attesting that they're a Colorado resident who plans to apply for a particular position, and then they'd reply back with the range. Wondering if that attempt at information hiding complies with Colorado law or not. If more states add this requirement, workarounds for companies to hide the data will become cumbersome.
pnw 4y ago
Although I see the appeal of this, the MAJOR flaw is that California allowed a private right of action, unlike the Colorado law. It’s inevitable that lawyers will weaponize this as a new source of revenue, just like patent trolls and ADA lawsuits do with copy and paste lawsuits. And those lawsuits will disproportionately fall on smaller companies without in-house lawyers and the resources to fight them, just like they have with ADA lawsuits and patent trolls.

43 points by joe-collins 4y ago

In my experience pay is not a good proxy for the value an employee brings to a company or society. I think society would be better with pay based on the job description for most jobs vs. the company or the individual employee.

ElfinTrousers 4y ago
On the other hand, pay does tend to be a good proxy for whether I can afford rent and groceries, so it's not entirely without interest.

alvatech 4y ago

I've recently seen that many job postings do include pay ranges. However, they only provide the base wage range; joining bonuses and stock grants are not included. I don't believe that this bill requires employers to report the full range of pay.

singron 4y ago
Honestly employers have been kneecapping themselves with this. E.g. Google job posts usually post base salary for L3 even if the listing is obviously for L5/L6. The total comp is like 2.5x the advertised amount. Why wouldn't they try to put the biggest number they can get away with?
- almost_usual 4y ago
  > Why wouldn't they try to put the biggest number they can get away with? They don’t need to, people already know.
- shapefrog 4y ago
  > Why wouldn't they try to put the biggest number they can get away with It is unusual in a negotiation to offer to pay the largest amount possible as your opening bid - they do it so they can pay the smallest number they can get away with. If there is someone amazing that they want to pay $25mil to - they wouldnt be advertising the role.
almost_usual 4y ago
Stock grants and bonuses aren’t guaranteed to be worth anything. On the flip side someone who joined a company at the right time (pre-covid?) might have a stock grant worth much more than a new hire.

majestik 4y ago

This is a step in the right direction for equitable pay. Ideally would include full compensation be posted though, stocks, etc.

tomcam 4y ago
What is equitable pay?
- whb07 4y ago
  Places swanky enough to offer stocks and benefits. The idea that all are equally lined up against the wall for quick execution. Typically happens at swanky/rich companies leading up to more “equity/inclusion” pushed down your throat.
- sneak 4y ago
  Equitable pay is pay both the employer and the employee mutually agree upon. Everything else is agenda-based.
  - pxmpxm 4y ago
    I'm pretty sure that's the point the parent was trying to illustrate. "Equitable pay" is a merely a political narrative for left leaning audiences - postmodernist talking points always require victims, after all.
    - claudiawerner 4y ago
      People have been arguing for "equitable pay" since before the word 'postmodernist' ever entered the English lexicon. In general, equitable pay for a job would entail that no two people are paid differently on the basis of certain characteristics we might deem irrelevant (and this basket of characteristics varies depending on who you ask). Further, economists, political scientists, and philosophers alike have written on the topic of what is equitable in a capitalist economy, and in terms of distributive justice; there are very few people who would define equitability as the mere existence of an agreement between parties, including the legal system (for example, some contracts can and are deemed unconscionable, and selling organs or oneself into slavery are illegal).

philihp 4y ago

Good

egberts1 4y ago

What difference does it make if the pay range is far greater than the inequity of actual pay gap?

lacker 4y ago

Pay ranges are often not helpful because there's no standard for which jobs are a "single role". For example tech companies are often mandated to post ranges for H1B positions, but they can get away posting unhelpful things like "the pay range is $50k-$900k". Far more useful, in the tech industry at least, is to look at websites that show you pay ranges specific to the job level. For example: https://levels.fyi https://levels.fyi

anthlax 4y ago
Levels mixes location which kind of sucks - for example, Google’s non-negotiated pay bands for entry level are 220k - 157k depending on location. That’s an incredibly wide gap - > the standard US citizens salary. Levels takes the average of those numbers so the usefulness dwindles.

Mountain_Skies 4y ago

It's been nice seeing the pay range for remote jobs added to postings, even if they claim the range is only valid in Colorado. Even if pay is somewhat different elsewhere (it probably shouldn't be for remote), at least you know if you're in a Major League ballpark or the local YMCA dirt lot. I did recently see a job posting by IBM that stated that Colorado applicants could email a particular email address, attesting that they're a Colorado resident who plans to apply for a particular position, and then they'd reply back with the range. Wondering if that attempt at information hiding complies with Colorado law or not. If more states add this requirement, workarounds for companies to hide the data will become cumbersome.

pnw 4y ago

Although I see the appeal of this, the MAJOR flaw is that California allowed a private right of action, unlike the Colorado law. It’s inevitable that lawyers will weaponize this as a new source of revenue, just like patent trolls and ADA lawsuits do with copy and paste lawsuits. And those lawsuits will disproportionately fall on smaller companies without in-house lawyers and the resources to fight them, just like they have with ADA lawsuits and patent trolls.