4 ms·

I would say not being able to buy Russian gas is good for EU. Supporting evil empire by buying gas is bad not just for European souls but also for long-term sta

by glogla 4y ago

I would say not being able to buy Russian gas is good for EU. Supporting evil empire by buying gas is bad not just for European souls but also for long-term stability, as we can see.

dns_snek 4y ago
Most of us "European souls" would prefer to stay warm throughout the winter. It seems quite clear to me that in the short and medium term this ideological stance isn't going to hurt "evil Russian empire" a whole lot, while being extremely disruptive and harmful to everyone in the EU.
- glogla 4y ago
  Nobody in EU will be in danger of freezing due to lack of gas. There is enough if gas coming from other places than Russia and the governments are mostly subsidizing it. I don't know why people keep repeating this lie, do they want to support Russia so badly? The real risk for Europe is a recession due to gas prices for industrial use - but that would mostly impact extremely rich places, like Germany.
  - dns_snek 4y ago
    You can say that the governments are going to take care of them in the short term and you're probably right. It's unlikely that (m)any people are going to freeze to death, but it's still going to result in countless days, weeks, even months of uncertainty and anxiety for those people. There will be a toll. Even with subsides and a social support net, we're still kicking the can down the road. The bill WILL come due and it's going to hit those who are poor and "lower middle class" the hardest, as always. People are increasingly in need of food donations and financial support with skyrocketing energy prices. Similarly, donations have decreased and every charity in my country is running thin on resources. Elderly and other vulnerable populations are especially at risk here as they might not have the resources to even reach out for help and follow through any bureaucracy. I don't support Russia, I hope they lose and dissolve into irrelevance, but I take a serious issue with the often-repeated viewpoint that brushes all of this suffering aside like it's not a big deal, only to claim that we are all too happy to lower the thermostat by 3 degrees and take some kind of collective stance that will meaningfully contribute to destruction of Russia. The suffering is greater than most people are willing to admit, meanwhile its effectiveness is questionable at best. I simply don't believe that energy imports from Russia are what's keeping the war going in any meaningful fashion, something that we could easily change if we just stopped importing their gas. I'd love to be proven wrong on this, but so far I've only seen handwavy explanations that don't amount to anything more than "every little bit probably helps".
    - glogla 4y ago
      The gas is not standing by itself, Russia refused to sell it as a reaction to Western help to Ukraine and sanctions. Getting it running again would require nations to go beg to Russia, who would probably ask for all the sanctions removed and help to Ukraine stop. But I'm pretty sure both US and various EE countries would not want to do that, leading to fracture and instability in EU and NATO in pretty critical time. For example people of Poland, which hosts literally millions of Ukrainian refugees would probably freak out if what they see as "rich west people" start complaining about money and ask for support for Ukraine to stop because gas is now expensive. To summarise, we can't buy the Russian gas because they would ask us to do unacceptable things for it, and it would probably destroy EU from within. That's my take at least. Also seems that someone is taking that choice away now, with blowing up Nord Stream. As for the impact of sanctions and the energy war, I'm not an expert but I find Perun's videos pretty insightful - but I admit "hour long powerpoint presentation by military analyst on youtube" is pretty strange genre. This video touches on sanctions, economy and the energy war: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce5TR-qWCk4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce5TR-qWCk4 You're right I was pretty blasé about the suffering of people, and partially it's because I live pretty close to Ukraine, but still I shouldn't have.

by glogla 4y ago

I would say not being able to buy Russian gas is good for EU. Supporting evil empire by buying gas is bad not just for European souls but also for long-term stability, as we can see.

dns_snek 4y ago

Most of us "European souls" would prefer to stay warm throughout the winter. It seems quite clear to me that in the short and medium term this ideological stance isn't going to hurt "evil Russian empire" a whole lot, while being extremely disruptive and harmful to everyone in the EU.

glogla 4y ago
Nobody in EU will be in danger of freezing due to lack of gas. There is enough if gas coming from other places than Russia and the governments are mostly subsidizing it. I don't know why people keep repeating this lie, do they want to support Russia so badly? The real risk for Europe is a recession due to gas prices for industrial use - but that would mostly impact extremely rich places, like Germany.
- dns_snek 4y ago
  You can say that the governments are going to take care of them in the short term and you're probably right. It's unlikely that (m)any people are going to freeze to death, but it's still going to result in countless days, weeks, even months of uncertainty and anxiety for those people. There will be a toll. Even with subsides and a social support net, we're still kicking the can down the road. The bill WILL come due and it's going to hit those who are poor and "lower middle class" the hardest, as always. People are increasingly in need of food donations and financial support with skyrocketing energy prices. Similarly, donations have decreased and every charity in my country is running thin on resources. Elderly and other vulnerable populations are especially at risk here as they might not have the resources to even reach out for help and follow through any bureaucracy. I don't support Russia, I hope they lose and dissolve into irrelevance, but I take a serious issue with the often-repeated viewpoint that brushes all of this suffering aside like it's not a big deal, only to claim that we are all too happy to lower the thermostat by 3 degrees and take some kind of collective stance that will meaningfully contribute to destruction of Russia. The suffering is greater than most people are willing to admit, meanwhile its effectiveness is questionable at best. I simply don't believe that energy imports from Russia are what's keeping the war going in any meaningful fashion, something that we could easily change if we just stopped importing their gas. I'd love to be proven wrong on this, but so far I've only seen handwavy explanations that don't amount to anything more than "every little bit probably helps".
  - glogla 4y ago
    The gas is not standing by itself, Russia refused to sell it as a reaction to Western help to Ukraine and sanctions. Getting it running again would require nations to go beg to Russia, who would probably ask for all the sanctions removed and help to Ukraine stop. But I'm pretty sure both US and various EE countries would not want to do that, leading to fracture and instability in EU and NATO in pretty critical time. For example people of Poland, which hosts literally millions of Ukrainian refugees would probably freak out if what they see as "rich west people" start complaining about money and ask for support for Ukraine to stop because gas is now expensive. To summarise, we can't buy the Russian gas because they would ask us to do unacceptable things for it, and it would probably destroy EU from within. That's my take at least. Also seems that someone is taking that choice away now, with blowing up Nord Stream. As for the impact of sanctions and the energy war, I'm not an expert but I find Perun's videos pretty insightful - but I admit "hour long powerpoint presentation by military analyst on youtube" is pretty strange genre. This video touches on sanctions, economy and the energy war: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce5TR-qWCk4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce5TR-qWCk4 You're right I was pretty blasé about the suffering of people, and partially it's because I live pretty close to Ukraine, but still I shouldn't have.