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I'm really getting tired of this kind of take. You never really see that if AWS adds a product, or GCP adds a product or any other products from bigger CDNs. W

by dewey 4y ago

I'm really getting tired of this kind of take. You never really see that if AWS adds a product, or GCP adds a product or any other products from bigger CDNs. What do you suggest? Cloudflare should stop releasing products? Regulation that you are only allowed to handle x% of the total internet traffic?

danwee 4y ago
> What do you suggest? Cloudflare should stop releasing products? Regulation that you are only allowed to handle x% of the total internet traffic? Regulation sounds about right. Monopolies are regulated in the real world, so why don't we do the same in the virtual one?
endisneigh 4y ago
You do see plenty of complaining about Amazon and Google, and yes, [some] people on here are very much pro regulation.
teddyh 4y ago
> You never really see that if AWS adds a product, or GCP adds a product or any other products from bigger CDNs. Accusations of hypocrisy is not an argument. Instead of accusing me (and all other detractors) of not criticizing others enough, please elaborate why this isn’t what I described. Cloudflare (and others) keep releasing products which makes their central role more central and less vulnerable to competition. They ought not to do that, and I would argue for laws which prevent them from doing that if necessary. Regarding the problem, this kind of problem should not be solved by one central actor. Instead, these problems should be solved by new network and protocol designs.
- onion2k 4y ago
  please elaborate why this isn’t what I described Approximately 1/3 of the most popular websites use Cloudflare[1]. That's not really an argument against the fact that Cloudflare might want to be 'the central server of the internet', but it's a suggestion that they have some way to go yet. I'd bet that Google Tag Manager and some AWS services are integrated into more than 1/3. [1] From https://backlinko.com/cloudflare-users https://backlinko.com/cloudflare-users
  - teddyh 4y ago
    What, “They’re not an empire, they only rule ⅓ of the Earth’s surface!”? Or “Cloudflare cannot possibly be taking advantage of their market share, since they have competition!”?
  - jraph 4y ago
    Google Tag Manager can be down without affecting websites uptime and as a visitor I can block them. I do block them, by the way. So, it's quite central, but at least not really a point of failure. AWS and Cloudflare, on the contrary… (and also Google products like fonts.googleapi.com, or probably anything under googleapi.com)
- gautamdivgi 4y ago
  That’s too much government control for my liking. Just being honest. Laws that prevent free enterprise never end well. There should be laws that prevent companies from selling a product at a “loss” to gain market share. But to prevent companies from releasing products is completely different level of control which is undesirable.
- jnwatson 4y ago
  From that line of argument, we should really get folks off Linux. And nginx.
  - teddyh 4y ago
    Is Linux a central actor? No, it’s not; any people could continue development at any time if the current people stop developing it. Also, the comparison is flawed, since neither Linux nor Nginx are network services.
corytheboyd 4y ago
I agree, this rhetoric is getting old. So we're supposed to go use one of thousands of other tiny cloud platform providers? Okay let's entertain that idea. The first bare minimum items on your vendor approval checklist are things like "can I trust this business to exist in 10 years" , "do they have enough resources to support me when shit hits the fan", and "are they mature enough to deliver on the shiny bullet points on their homepage and in their sales pitch". Isn't this process going to naturally select a small handful of providers? What am I missing here?
- endisneigh 4y ago
  > Isn't this process going to naturally select a small handful of providers? What am I missing here? No. It's possible to not do a lot and still last a very long time. Consider zippers, YKK has existed for almost a century and they only manufacture zippers.
  - corytheboyd 4y ago
    I know you know this but there is quite the difference between a multi-faceted cloud compute offering and the thing that holds my hoodie together.
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      The point is that it's possible for a company to focus on one thing for a long time. Do you dispute this?
      - corytheboyd 4y ago
        I am, surprisingly, capable of understanding that companies can exist for long periods of time. Time to walk away lol
        endisneigh 4y ago
        If you understand that then I don't know why you posted your original comment. It isn't true in theory nor in practice. cya, lol
larvaetron 4y ago
> I'm really getting tired of this kind of take. I'm really getting tired of this kind of hand-wavey response.
viraptor 4y ago
They're a bit different from AWS. First, they have less competition. Like, competition exists, but they really dominate the market and are the only ones onboarding serious traffic for free loss leader accounts. Second, for all their "we're neutral" talk, they regulate a lot of online traffic in a way that AWS never did. AWS cloudfront shield will not cut you off from majority of the popular internet without recourse just because you accidentally tripped some rule. So yeah, not being able to handle more than x% of the internet traffic (unless they're running a real dumb pipe with only IP routing logic) sounds great. I'd welcome anther Bell systems breakup.
bogomipz 4y ago
>"I'm really getting tired of this kind of take." Which take is that? An opinion or outlook that differs from your own? >"You never really see that if AWS adds a product, or GCP adds a product or any other products from bigger CDNs." Sure, you do. When AWS released it's DocumentDB(MongoDB competitor) and "Open Distro for Elasticsearch" there was plenty of uproar, both form the companies behind these products as well as the community. Those concerns were also registered on HN.

by dewey 4y ago

danwee 4y ago

> What do you suggest? Cloudflare should stop releasing products? Regulation that you are only allowed to handle x% of the total internet traffic? Regulation sounds about right. Monopolies are regulated in the real world, so why don't we do the same in the virtual one?

endisneigh 4y ago

You do see plenty of complaining about Amazon and Google, and yes, [some] people on here are very much pro regulation.

teddyh 4y ago

> You never really see that if AWS adds a product, or GCP adds a product or any other products from bigger CDNs. Accusations of hypocrisy is not an argument. Instead of accusing me (and all other detractors) of not criticizing others enough, please elaborate why this isn’t what I described. Cloudflare (and others) keep releasing products which makes their central role more central and less vulnerable to competition. They ought not to do that, and I would argue for laws which prevent them from doing that if necessary. Regarding the problem, this kind of problem should not be solved by one central actor. Instead, these problems should be solved by new network and protocol designs.

onion2k 4y ago
please elaborate why this isn’t what I described Approximately 1/3 of the most popular websites use Cloudflare[1]. That's not really an argument against the fact that Cloudflare might want to be 'the central server of the internet', but it's a suggestion that they have some way to go yet. I'd bet that Google Tag Manager and some AWS services are integrated into more than 1/3. [1] From https://backlinko.com/cloudflare-users https://backlinko.com/cloudflare-users
- teddyh 4y ago
  What, “They’re not an empire, they only rule ⅓ of the Earth’s surface!”? Or “Cloudflare cannot possibly be taking advantage of their market share, since they have competition!”?
- jraph 4y ago
  Google Tag Manager can be down without affecting websites uptime and as a visitor I can block them. I do block them, by the way. So, it's quite central, but at least not really a point of failure. AWS and Cloudflare, on the contrary… (and also Google products like fonts.googleapi.com, or probably anything under googleapi.com)
gautamdivgi 4y ago
That’s too much government control for my liking. Just being honest. Laws that prevent free enterprise never end well. There should be laws that prevent companies from selling a product at a “loss” to gain market share. But to prevent companies from releasing products is completely different level of control which is undesirable.
jnwatson 4y ago
From that line of argument, we should really get folks off Linux. And nginx.
- teddyh 4y ago
  Is Linux a central actor? No, it’s not; any people could continue development at any time if the current people stop developing it. Also, the comparison is flawed, since neither Linux nor Nginx are network services.

corytheboyd 4y ago

I agree, this rhetoric is getting old. So we're supposed to go use one of thousands of other tiny cloud platform providers? Okay let's entertain that idea. The first bare minimum items on your vendor approval checklist are things like "can I trust this business to exist in 10 years" , "do they have enough resources to support me when shit hits the fan", and "are they mature enough to deliver on the shiny bullet points on their homepage and in their sales pitch". Isn't this process going to naturally select a small handful of providers? What am I missing here?

endisneigh 4y ago
> Isn't this process going to naturally select a small handful of providers? What am I missing here? No. It's possible to not do a lot and still last a very long time. Consider zippers, YKK has existed for almost a century and they only manufacture zippers.
- corytheboyd 4y ago
  I know you know this but there is quite the difference between a multi-faceted cloud compute offering and the thing that holds my hoodie together.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    The point is that it's possible for a company to focus on one thing for a long time. Do you dispute this?
    - corytheboyd 4y ago
      I am, surprisingly, capable of understanding that companies can exist for long periods of time. Time to walk away lol
      - endisneigh 4y ago
        If you understand that then I don't know why you posted your original comment. It isn't true in theory nor in practice. cya, lol

larvaetron 4y ago

> I'm really getting tired of this kind of take. I'm really getting tired of this kind of hand-wavey response.

viraptor 4y ago

They're a bit different from AWS. First, they have less competition. Like, competition exists, but they really dominate the market and are the only ones onboarding serious traffic for free loss leader accounts. Second, for all their "we're neutral" talk, they regulate a lot of online traffic in a way that AWS never did. AWS cloudfront shield will not cut you off from majority of the popular internet without recourse just because you accidentally tripped some rule. So yeah, not being able to handle more than x% of the internet traffic (unless they're running a real dumb pipe with only IP routing logic) sounds great. I'd welcome anther Bell systems breakup.

bogomipz 4y ago

>"I'm really getting tired of this kind of take." Which take is that? An opinion or outlook that differs from your own? >"You never really see that if AWS adds a product, or GCP adds a product or any other products from bigger CDNs." Sure, you do. When AWS released it's DocumentDB(MongoDB competitor) and "Open Distro for Elasticsearch" there was plenty of uproar, both form the companies behind these products as well as the community. Those concerns were also registered on HN.