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Biden himself told they would do it, and "promised they have ways to do it" (from ca 1:20): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS4O8rGRLf8&t=82s https://www.youtu

Biden himself told they would do it, and "promised they have ways to do it" (from ca 1:20): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS4O8rGRLf8&t=82s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS4O8rGRLf8&t=82s

shadowgovt 4y ago
Which means, since this is cloak-and-dagger stuff, we could add to the list of suspects "anyone who could get access to that Pipeline and wants to destabilize relations between the United States and Germany."
- aa-jv 4y ago
  It doesn't destabilize the relationship between US and Germany one bit - unless evidence comes out that the USA did do this damage - in which case the Germans will probably apologize and kowtow, as they always do when America is on the line ... It does make it hard for Germany and Russia to have energy trade, however. Which makes it easier for the USA to sell its dirty gas in Europe.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    It destabilizes it to the extant that if a bunch of armchair politicos on HN can reason to the conclusion "The likeliest perpetrator is the United States of America," every nation's espionage organization can certainly find that conclusion too, and possibly act on it, for the purposes of framing the US for their own political reasons. I'm reminded of the worm that was injected into NASA servers back in the '80s that eventually made its way into DOE servers (creating a possible nuclear crisis because the DOE deals with two things: energy policy and the posture of the American nuclear response system). Direct initial investigation pointed to the worm originating from servers in France, but further investigation revealed that those servers had been compromised, and the likely origin of the worm was hackers in the Australia / New Zealand area. The likeliest catalyst for the attack: France's blatant destruction of the Rainbow Warrior in a New Zealand harbor. The attack ended up serving two purposes: bloody the nose of the Americans, who were (in the eyes of the attackers) playing fast-and-loose with nuclear payloads on NASA missions; and if their antics were discovered, embarrass the French with how easily their servers had been compromised. Essentially, a double-"don't fuck with us" via cyberspace from the Aussies or New Zealand. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4686/4686.txt https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4686/4686.txt
    - aa-jv 4y ago
      I mean, its not like Biden didn't make the statement that he'd do exactly this. If him admitting that it was a plan isn't enough for you, I don't think your myopia is going to be altered by any further discussion.
      - shadowgovt 4y ago
        I'm not saying the US definitely didn't do it. I'm saying that the thing about being an armchair politico on a forum and not a member of an Alphabet Soup organization is that unless someone claims responsibility we won't know who actually did it until maybe a half-decade to a decade out when all investigations are concluded and the various international intelligence agencies and private journalists get the story straight. They were very certain France hacked NASA until they weren't. (Something like Biden's loose lips is only further cover for another cloak-and-dagger actor, state or private. Until and unless some country or group comes right out and claims responsibility, all manner of idea-tossing on this forum doesn't give us more than a well-shaped question mark on who actually did it).
      - webshit2 4y ago
        Exactly this? He said he was going to blow it up?
        aa-jv 4y ago
        He ambiguously stated that the US would "find a way to make sure Nord Stream is done for good". Policy hasn't worked, in years. In spite of the US' worst efforts, Nord Stream was built and completed and could actually be used to peacefully engage in energy economy between Russia and Europe. This alliance is intolerable to the USA, so: the last act was destruction. Lets see, anyway. Evidence is going to be important on this case.
fffobar 4y ago
The Baltic Sea is very very shallow, with average depth of just 55 meters. It's not particularly difficult to do, sadly :( "Fun" fact, mostly unrelated: the Baltic sea floor is full of unexploded munitions from WW2, and some (still?) contained chemical weapons.
- LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
  I'd think they would have cleared them before, instead of blindly laying some pipes in 'good faith'.
  - fffobar 4y ago
    Oh I'm sure it's cleared enough around the various pipes and cables that lie on the bottom. But it's still a far cry from the entire bottom of the sea being safe.

Biden himself told they would do it, and "promised they have ways to do it" (from ca 1:20): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS4O8rGRLf8&t=82s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS4O8rGRLf8&t=82s

shadowgovt 4y ago

Which means, since this is cloak-and-dagger stuff, we could add to the list of suspects "anyone who could get access to that Pipeline and wants to destabilize relations between the United States and Germany."

aa-jv 4y ago
It doesn't destabilize the relationship between US and Germany one bit - unless evidence comes out that the USA did do this damage - in which case the Germans will probably apologize and kowtow, as they always do when America is on the line ... It does make it hard for Germany and Russia to have energy trade, however. Which makes it easier for the USA to sell its dirty gas in Europe.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  It destabilizes it to the extant that if a bunch of armchair politicos on HN can reason to the conclusion "The likeliest perpetrator is the United States of America," every nation's espionage organization can certainly find that conclusion too, and possibly act on it, for the purposes of framing the US for their own political reasons. I'm reminded of the worm that was injected into NASA servers back in the '80s that eventually made its way into DOE servers (creating a possible nuclear crisis because the DOE deals with two things: energy policy and the posture of the American nuclear response system). Direct initial investigation pointed to the worm originating from servers in France, but further investigation revealed that those servers had been compromised, and the likely origin of the worm was hackers in the Australia / New Zealand area. The likeliest catalyst for the attack: France's blatant destruction of the Rainbow Warrior in a New Zealand harbor. The attack ended up serving two purposes: bloody the nose of the Americans, who were (in the eyes of the attackers) playing fast-and-loose with nuclear payloads on NASA missions; and if their antics were discovered, embarrass the French with how easily their servers had been compromised. Essentially, a double-"don't fuck with us" via cyberspace from the Aussies or New Zealand. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4686/4686.txt https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4686/4686.txt
  - aa-jv 4y ago
    I mean, its not like Biden didn't make the statement that he'd do exactly this. If him admitting that it was a plan isn't enough for you, I don't think your myopia is going to be altered by any further discussion.
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      I'm not saying the US definitely didn't do it. I'm saying that the thing about being an armchair politico on a forum and not a member of an Alphabet Soup organization is that unless someone claims responsibility we won't know who actually did it until maybe a half-decade to a decade out when all investigations are concluded and the various international intelligence agencies and private journalists get the story straight. They were very certain France hacked NASA until they weren't. (Something like Biden's loose lips is only further cover for another cloak-and-dagger actor, state or private. Until and unless some country or group comes right out and claims responsibility, all manner of idea-tossing on this forum doesn't give us more than a well-shaped question mark on who actually did it).
    - webshit2 4y ago
      Exactly this? He said he was going to blow it up?
      - aa-jv 4y ago
        He ambiguously stated that the US would "find a way to make sure Nord Stream is done for good". Policy hasn't worked, in years. In spite of the US' worst efforts, Nord Stream was built and completed and could actually be used to peacefully engage in energy economy between Russia and Europe. This alliance is intolerable to the USA, so: the last act was destruction. Lets see, anyway. Evidence is going to be important on this case.

fffobar 4y ago

The Baltic Sea is very very shallow, with average depth of just 55 meters. It's not particularly difficult to do, sadly :( "Fun" fact, mostly unrelated: the Baltic sea floor is full of unexploded munitions from WW2, and some (still?) contained chemical weapons.

LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
I'd think they would have cleared them before, instead of blindly laying some pipes in 'good faith'.
- fffobar 4y ago
  Oh I'm sure it's cleared enough around the various pipes and cables that lie on the bottom. But it's still a far cry from the entire bottom of the sea being safe.