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I think you are right. Luckily, to fix these worries they can be translated to some principles one can live by if one wants to participate in overcoming this so

by _def 4y ago

I think you are right. Luckily, to fix these worries they can be translated to some principles one can live by if one wants to participate in overcoming this societal problem: 1. Help people without expecting to be repaid for it in any form 2. Practice empathy for shortcomings of others 3. Speak up if you don't want to or are not able to help someone

kd5bjo 4y ago
There's also a potential issue of the "help" being a net-negative, even when provided. If someone has strong ideas about how the work should be done that differ from yours, for instance, accepting their help can make things worse. Unfortunately, you usually can't know whether this is the case until after they've already started.
- lazide 4y ago
  It’s not uncommon, in say urban homelessness, that shelters or food banks will have conditions that many of the people on the street consider unconscionable or impossible to meet. Some reflection on them tends to be informative about many of the challenges on both sides, and the nature of the problem. Some of them include shelters with: - No dog rules (because many people have dogs which are poorly behaved, lack immunizations, and have attacked other people at the shelters in the past). Many folks have animals for companionship and protection. - No drug rules, including Alcohol (because many people have gone on drug fueled benders and attacked others at the shelters in the last). Many persistent homeless folks have drug problems too. - Sex segregation rules (because women have been raped by others at the shelter in the past). The problem is, many homeless women also have boyfriends that provide a significant degree of safety and support, and even with sex segregation, the shelters have predators. But what else are they supposed to do? If they don’t make rules to at least protect others in the environment, they’re making a giant attractive nuisance/hazard. If they make exceptions, they’re asking to be attacked or sued themselves. (You’d be surprised how many activists are happy to spend serious money suing over something like that).
lazide 4y ago
Good principles. They also sounds like a recipe for being taken advantage of or abused in an Urban environment, or if applied naively. In my experience, do it long enough, and blindly enough, and it’ll end up collecting the worst - in any environment it’s applied to - when the group set is large. Mostly because of a filtering effect. The folks who need help to get self sufficient will use the help, get self sufficient, then go elsewhere. The folks who will fall back on bad habits, will use the help, and break themselves again, and then get into a cycle of dependence on the help until either the help is withdrawn (which often causes anger), or they find an even juicier offer of help. It isn’t a large percentage of people who are like the latter group - maybe 1-2%. But given enough folks and enough time, and it’ll end up collecting a hard core group of people that will be a serious problem.
- _def 4y ago
  I see your point. Setting healthy boundaries is important. I also want to note that the most effective form of 'help' is the one that will enable the person in need to help themselves better in the future. As long as that point is not reached, they may find themselves in the vicious cycle that you described.

by _def 4y ago

kd5bjo 4y ago

There's also a potential issue of the "help" being a net-negative, even when provided. If someone has strong ideas about how the work should be done that differ from yours, for instance, accepting their help can make things worse. Unfortunately, you usually can't know whether this is the case until after they've already started.

lazide 4y ago
It’s not uncommon, in say urban homelessness, that shelters or food banks will have conditions that many of the people on the street consider unconscionable or impossible to meet. Some reflection on them tends to be informative about many of the challenges on both sides, and the nature of the problem. Some of them include shelters with: - No dog rules (because many people have dogs which are poorly behaved, lack immunizations, and have attacked other people at the shelters in the past). Many folks have animals for companionship and protection. - No drug rules, including Alcohol (because many people have gone on drug fueled benders and attacked others at the shelters in the last). Many persistent homeless folks have drug problems too. - Sex segregation rules (because women have been raped by others at the shelter in the past). The problem is, many homeless women also have boyfriends that provide a significant degree of safety and support, and even with sex segregation, the shelters have predators. But what else are they supposed to do? If they don’t make rules to at least protect others in the environment, they’re making a giant attractive nuisance/hazard. If they make exceptions, they’re asking to be attacked or sued themselves. (You’d be surprised how many activists are happy to spend serious money suing over something like that).

lazide 4y ago

Good principles. They also sounds like a recipe for being taken advantage of or abused in an Urban environment, or if applied naively. In my experience, do it long enough, and blindly enough, and it’ll end up collecting the worst - in any environment it’s applied to - when the group set is large. Mostly because of a filtering effect. The folks who need help to get self sufficient will use the help, get self sufficient, then go elsewhere. The folks who will fall back on bad habits, will use the help, and break themselves again, and then get into a cycle of dependence on the help until either the help is withdrawn (which often causes anger), or they find an even juicier offer of help. It isn’t a large percentage of people who are like the latter group - maybe 1-2%. But given enough folks and enough time, and it’ll end up collecting a hard core group of people that will be a serious problem.

_def 4y ago
I see your point. Setting healthy boundaries is important. I also want to note that the most effective form of 'help' is the one that will enable the person in need to help themselves better in the future. As long as that point is not reached, they may find themselves in the vicious cycle that you described.