4 ms·

It can be anyone. Could even be a private person. But yeah its definitely not Russia.

by tokai 4y ago

defrost 4y ago
Russia isn't exactly homogenous; satellite states aside even core Muscovite populations are divided in opinion on war and Putin - even if not exactly vocal. This could range from a small group staging a false flag to push Putin further (he is a surprise moderate of the extremely hawkish Russsian elements) to a different small group staging some form of protest by sabotage .. to any other ridiculous scenario imaginable.
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
Yep, russia controls "the valve", so it doesn't need to destroy the pipelines, and the minute EU (well, mostly germany) decides to negiotiate, putin can open the valve. With this, even if they negotiate, there won't be any gas soon. So, it's bad for russia, bad for eu, and the only one being better of is USA... who was threathened to do exactly this more than once. https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662 https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662
- 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
  cool. lets see the world now decide how they will play it, i mean here is prior deliberations and intent and we saw today the action itself so if USA is behind this which they most probably are, how will EU for example respond to this aggression? I hope the same response viz a viz sanctions, trade barriers, this and that.????
  - IAmGraydon 4y ago
    It would be exactly like Russia to do something like this in order to drive a wedge between the US and EU. Look for something Biden said that could be misconstrued as a threat to blow up the pipeline, actually blow it up, and then watch the world blame the US.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    I mean.. if EU leadership was competent, they'd do the thing that USA is most afraid of.. talk to putin and make a strong europe. Realistically.. even if they found an american submarine with "pipecutters" still connected to the pipeline, they'd say they'll do everything in their power(!!!)... and then send an angry letter to USA and replace an ambassador or two somewhere.
    - kjeetgill 4y ago
      > if EU leadership was competent, they'd do the thing that USA is most afraid of.. talk to putin and make a strong europe. Wow Just wow. Ready to place responsibility at everyone but Russia's feet right? Such a blameless third party victim in all of this /s. The pipeline itself was in good part Merkel's olive branch to connect Putin economically to the rest of the EU. The hope was that giving Russia more to lose would prevent these conflicts. Sure the US, among others, we're wary of this kind of interdependence. Well, now we know how things shook out and we're all dealing with it. Germany from the back foot this round. Now I'm not attributing any great foresight to naysayers (US among them), it was a nobel bid for peace on Germany's part and there's always a chance we'd be talking about the brilliance of deepening those connections with Russia. But we can't. Russia drove its tanks into Ukraine, nobody made them. They weren't under any great duress. Even the most unjustifiably charitable take of Russian justification accounts for what, just Luhansk and Donetsk? But they tried to take Kiev. Tried to take every bit of Ukrainian's coastline with the Black Sea through Odessa. Russia good out of it's way to poison their reputation here with conquest.
      - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        > Russia drove its tanks into Ukraine, nobody made them So what.. just a meaningless war in a meaningless country, a for the same reasons nato bombed yugoslavia in 1999 and noone cared. Americans drove tanks to afghanistan, syria, libya, a bunch of eu countries helped them, nato forces are still in syria, and again... noone cares. Yes, some individuals maybe do... especially people living there... but not the EU as a whole. But now, suddenly, while still having our soldiers station in eg. syria (i live in a small eu country, so we're not eg. france, that we'd had our soldiers occupying a bunch of african states), the media told us to sacrifice our standard of living, work, so the government can take money and send it to ukraine, to be cold, to not shower as much as we wanted, for what? A country that was just a few years ago was the most corrupt country in europe, full of nazis [0], and all the provocations were instigated by the US [1]? We should forget all this, fuck our livelihoods for some geopolitical shitshow? Thank you, but no. [0] https://i.imgur.com/mRAaOo0.jpg https://i.imgur.com/mRAaOo0.jpg [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/13/ukraine-us-war-russia-john-pilger https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/13/ukrain...
- pxtail 4y ago
  Not necessarily as it could be Russian false flag operation to justify retaliation in the form of, for example Baltic Pipe damage
- glogla 4y ago
  I would say not being able to buy Russian gas is good for EU. Supporting evil empire by buying gas is bad not just for European souls but also for long-term stability, as we can see.
  - dns_snek 4y ago
    Most of us "European souls" would prefer to stay warm throughout the winter. It seems quite clear to me that in the short and medium term this ideological stance isn't going to hurt "evil Russian empire" a whole lot, while being extremely disruptive and harmful to everyone in the EU.
    - glogla 4y ago
      Nobody in EU will be in danger of freezing due to lack of gas. There is enough if gas coming from other places than Russia and the governments are mostly subsidizing it. I don't know why people keep repeating this lie, do they want to support Russia so badly? The real risk for Europe is a recession due to gas prices for industrial use - but that would mostly impact extremely rich places, like Germany.
      - dns_snek 4y ago
        You can say that the governments are going to take care of them in the short term and you're probably right. It's unlikely that (m)any people are going to freeze to death, but it's still going to result in countless days, weeks, even months of uncertainty and anxiety for those people. There will be a toll. Even with subsides and a social support net, we're still kicking the can down the road. The bill WILL come due and it's going to hit those who are poor and "lower middle class" the hardest, as always. People are increasingly in need of food donations and financial support with skyrocketing energy prices. Similarly, donations have decreased and every charity in my country is running thin on resources. Elderly and other vulnerable populations are especially at risk here as they might not have the resources to even reach out for help and follow through any bureaucracy. I don't support Russia, I hope they lose and dissolve into irrelevance, but I take a serious issue with the often-repeated viewpoint that brushes all of this suffering aside like it's not a big deal, only to claim that we are all too happy to lower the thermostat by 3 degrees and take some kind of collective stance that will meaningfully contribute to destruction of Russia. The suffering is greater than most people are willing to admit, meanwhile its effectiveness is questionable at best. I simply don't believe that energy imports from Russia are what's keeping the war going in any meaningful fashion, something that we could easily change if we just stopped importing their gas. I'd love to be proven wrong on this, but so far I've only seen handwavy explanations that don't amount to anything more than "every little bit probably helps".
regnull 4y ago
There is nothing ever “definitely” about Russia. It could be as simple as “look what we can do”.
- tokai 4y ago
  It's not like its impressive to damage the pipeline.
- foverzar 4y ago
  Objective reality does exist.

It can be anyone. Could even be a private person. But yeah its definitely not Russia.

by tokai 4y ago

It can be anyone. Could even be a private person. But yeah its definitely not Russia.

Russia isn't exactly homogenous; satellite states aside even core Muscovite populations are divided in opinion on war and Putin - even if not exactly vocal. This could range from a small group staging a false flag to push Putin further (he is a surprise moderate of the extremely hawkish Russsian elements) to a different small group staging some form of protest by sabotage .. to any other ridiculous scenario imaginable.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

Yep, russia controls "the valve", so it doesn't need to destroy the pipelines, and the minute EU (well, mostly germany) decides to negiotiate, putin can open the valve. With this, even if they negotiate, there won't be any gas soon. So, it's bad for russia, bad for eu, and the only one being better of is USA... who was threathened to do exactly this more than once. https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662 https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662

2Gkashmiri 4y ago
cool. lets see the world now decide how they will play it, i mean here is prior deliberations and intent and we saw today the action itself so if USA is behind this which they most probably are, how will EU for example respond to this aggression? I hope the same response viz a viz sanctions, trade barriers, this and that.????
- IAmGraydon 4y ago
  It would be exactly like Russia to do something like this in order to drive a wedge between the US and EU. Look for something Biden said that could be misconstrued as a threat to blow up the pipeline, actually blow it up, and then watch the world blame the US.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  I mean.. if EU leadership was competent, they'd do the thing that USA is most afraid of.. talk to putin and make a strong europe. Realistically.. even if they found an american submarine with "pipecutters" still connected to the pipeline, they'd say they'll do everything in their power(!!!)... and then send an angry letter to USA and replace an ambassador or two somewhere.
  - kjeetgill 4y ago
    > if EU leadership was competent, they'd do the thing that USA is most afraid of.. talk to putin and make a strong europe. Wow Just wow. Ready to place responsibility at everyone but Russia's feet right? Such a blameless third party victim in all of this /s. The pipeline itself was in good part Merkel's olive branch to connect Putin economically to the rest of the EU. The hope was that giving Russia more to lose would prevent these conflicts. Sure the US, among others, we're wary of this kind of interdependence. Well, now we know how things shook out and we're all dealing with it. Germany from the back foot this round. Now I'm not attributing any great foresight to naysayers (US among them), it was a nobel bid for peace on Germany's part and there's always a chance we'd be talking about the brilliance of deepening those connections with Russia. But we can't. Russia drove its tanks into Ukraine, nobody made them. They weren't under any great duress. Even the most unjustifiably charitable take of Russian justification accounts for what, just Luhansk and Donetsk? But they tried to take Kiev. Tried to take every bit of Ukrainian's coastline with the Black Sea through Odessa. Russia good out of it's way to poison their reputation here with conquest.
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      > Russia drove its tanks into Ukraine, nobody made them So what.. just a meaningless war in a meaningless country, a for the same reasons nato bombed yugoslavia in 1999 and noone cared. Americans drove tanks to afghanistan, syria, libya, a bunch of eu countries helped them, nato forces are still in syria, and again... noone cares. Yes, some individuals maybe do... especially people living there... but not the EU as a whole. But now, suddenly, while still having our soldiers station in eg. syria (i live in a small eu country, so we're not eg. france, that we'd had our soldiers occupying a bunch of african states), the media told us to sacrifice our standard of living, work, so the government can take money and send it to ukraine, to be cold, to not shower as much as we wanted, for what? A country that was just a few years ago was the most corrupt country in europe, full of nazis [0], and all the provocations were instigated by the US [1]? We should forget all this, fuck our livelihoods for some geopolitical shitshow? Thank you, but no. [0] https://i.imgur.com/mRAaOo0.jpg https://i.imgur.com/mRAaOo0.jpg [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/13/ukraine-us-war-russia-john-pilger https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/13/ukrain...
pxtail 4y ago
Not necessarily as it could be Russian false flag operation to justify retaliation in the form of, for example Baltic Pipe damage
glogla 4y ago
I would say not being able to buy Russian gas is good for EU. Supporting evil empire by buying gas is bad not just for European souls but also for long-term stability, as we can see.
- dns_snek 4y ago
  Most of us "European souls" would prefer to stay warm throughout the winter. It seems quite clear to me that in the short and medium term this ideological stance isn't going to hurt "evil Russian empire" a whole lot, while being extremely disruptive and harmful to everyone in the EU.
  - glogla 4y ago
    Nobody in EU will be in danger of freezing due to lack of gas. There is enough if gas coming from other places than Russia and the governments are mostly subsidizing it. I don't know why people keep repeating this lie, do they want to support Russia so badly? The real risk for Europe is a recession due to gas prices for industrial use - but that would mostly impact extremely rich places, like Germany.
    - dns_snek 4y ago
      You can say that the governments are going to take care of them in the short term and you're probably right. It's unlikely that (m)any people are going to freeze to death, but it's still going to result in countless days, weeks, even months of uncertainty and anxiety for those people. There will be a toll. Even with subsides and a social support net, we're still kicking the can down the road. The bill WILL come due and it's going to hit those who are poor and "lower middle class" the hardest, as always. People are increasingly in need of food donations and financial support with skyrocketing energy prices. Similarly, donations have decreased and every charity in my country is running thin on resources. Elderly and other vulnerable populations are especially at risk here as they might not have the resources to even reach out for help and follow through any bureaucracy. I don't support Russia, I hope they lose and dissolve into irrelevance, but I take a serious issue with the often-repeated viewpoint that brushes all of this suffering aside like it's not a big deal, only to claim that we are all too happy to lower the thermostat by 3 degrees and take some kind of collective stance that will meaningfully contribute to destruction of Russia. The suffering is greater than most people are willing to admit, meanwhile its effectiveness is questionable at best. I simply don't believe that energy imports from Russia are what's keeping the war going in any meaningful fashion, something that we could easily change if we just stopped importing their gas. I'd love to be proven wrong on this, but so far I've only seen handwavy explanations that don't amount to anything more than "every little bit probably helps".

regnull 4y ago

There is nothing ever “definitely” about Russia. It could be as simple as “look what we can do”.

tokai 4y ago
It's not like its impressive to damage the pipeline.
foverzar 4y ago
Objective reality does exist.