5 ms·

First, you are only talking about generation component. 17% may not seem like much until you consider that 1. it is roughly half of existing nuclear generation,

First, you are only talking about generation component. 17% may not seem like much until you consider that 1. it is roughly half of existing nuclear generation, which is already decided to be phased out 2. some nuclear reactors provide heating 3. that "only" 17% is equal to total consumption of one Baltic state. That is for Switzerland alone, which is measly small compared to EEA population. For the sake of argument round that 17% to be 10 TWh. Switzerland owns roughly 6 mio private vehicles. EEA owns roughly 250 mio. According to referenced study EEA needs "only" roughly 400 TWh additional generation, or something like 60 nuclear reactors. You just proved my point with data - it is shitloads of additional energy. Second, that additional energy will have to be moved somehow. You not only need ample generation, but also cross-region links, transmission grids and distribution lines to actual homes/chargers.

xiphias2 4y ago
Even if Switzerland just buys LPG and transmits electricity using that LPG, it is much more efficient to generate energy in big plants than in car motors. I do not see electricity generation a problem. Long routes are still problem though in Europe where I am used to going with 170km/h, but 150km/h is normal on the highway in Eastern Europe.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > it is much more efficient to generate energy in big plants than in car motors. I do not see electricity generation a problem. Those plants need to be built. Gas pipelines need to be routed to those plants. Energy distribution has to be built etc.
  - xiphias2 4y ago
    This is a problem only in corrupt countries. Switzerland is one of the few countries where government projects finish on time in the planned amount of money.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      Ah yes. In non-corrupt countries those plants and pipelines and distribution grids appear out of thin air. It's just amazing how "we need to build huge ass plants and all the infrastructure" is just dismissed as insignificant (also in a similar discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32992808 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32992808).
greatpatton 4y ago
Yes it's an issue when people have decided that energy generation should be outsources somewhere else... If you close your nuclear reactor you can only blame yourself if your power generation infrastructure is undersized. Can we please stop to compare to a Baltic state when their size is smaller than that of a western Europe large city. It doesn't bring anything to the comparison. (I'm pretty sure it's an order of magnitude of what San Marino need) Just to put in perspective your 60 nuclear reactors, currently China is building 36 new reactor, 50 more are in final project phase and in total they will add 160 new reactors in the next 20 years. This coupled with the massive installation of renewable, China is the only country that is going to handle the CO2 problem in the foreseeable future.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > Can we please stop to compare to a Baltic state when their size is smaller than that of a western Europe large city. It doesn't bring anything to the comparison. (I'm pretty sure it's an order of magnitude of what San Marino need) Ah yes. Some countries are more equal than others. Estonia is 15% of Swiss population if you want to compare populations. So, to indulge your insistence to only talk about Switzerland and completely ignoring the bigger picture, Estonia's population is more than Zurich, Geneva, Basel, Lausanne, Bern, and Winterthur combined. Ah yes, and consumes more than San Marino of course. But that's not the point The point is: It's not just Switzerland that has to increase power generation by ~17%, and build all the infrastructure to distribute that electricity, and make sure all those new plants are properly connected to the grid. On top of that Europe's grid is tightly interconnected. Here's a good twitter thread on what it means to supply/demand side of the equation: https://twitter.com/BurggrabenH/status/1567929340737863680 https://twitter.com/BurggrabenH/status/1567929340737863680 Pretending that "we need 17% more electricity is nothing, and is easily solvable" is uneducated at best. China is building those very fast because you wouldn't want to be a worker in one of those construction projects. Even though I agree on principle that the dismantling of nuclear energy in EU is a disgrace.

xiphias2 4y ago

Even if Switzerland just buys LPG and transmits electricity using that LPG, it is much more efficient to generate energy in big plants than in car motors. I do not see electricity generation a problem. Long routes are still problem though in Europe where I am used to going with 170km/h, but 150km/h is normal on the highway in Eastern Europe.

dmitriid 4y ago
> it is much more efficient to generate energy in big plants than in car motors. I do not see electricity generation a problem. Those plants need to be built. Gas pipelines need to be routed to those plants. Energy distribution has to be built etc.
- xiphias2 4y ago
  This is a problem only in corrupt countries. Switzerland is one of the few countries where government projects finish on time in the planned amount of money.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    Ah yes. In non-corrupt countries those plants and pipelines and distribution grids appear out of thin air. It's just amazing how "we need to build huge ass plants and all the infrastructure" is just dismissed as insignificant (also in a similar discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32992808 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32992808).

greatpatton 4y ago

Yes it's an issue when people have decided that energy generation should be outsources somewhere else... If you close your nuclear reactor you can only blame yourself if your power generation infrastructure is undersized. Can we please stop to compare to a Baltic state when their size is smaller than that of a western Europe large city. It doesn't bring anything to the comparison. (I'm pretty sure it's an order of magnitude of what San Marino need) Just to put in perspective your 60 nuclear reactors, currently China is building 36 new reactor, 50 more are in final project phase and in total they will add 160 new reactors in the next 20 years. This coupled with the massive installation of renewable, China is the only country that is going to handle the CO2 problem in the foreseeable future.

dmitriid 4y ago
> Can we please stop to compare to a Baltic state when their size is smaller than that of a western Europe large city. It doesn't bring anything to the comparison. (I'm pretty sure it's an order of magnitude of what San Marino need) Ah yes. Some countries are more equal than others. Estonia is 15% of Swiss population if you want to compare populations. So, to indulge your insistence to only talk about Switzerland and completely ignoring the bigger picture, Estonia's population is more than Zurich, Geneva, Basel, Lausanne, Bern, and Winterthur combined. Ah yes, and consumes more than San Marino of course. But that's not the point The point is: It's not just Switzerland that has to increase power generation by ~17%, and build all the infrastructure to distribute that electricity, and make sure all those new plants are properly connected to the grid. On top of that Europe's grid is tightly interconnected. Here's a good twitter thread on what it means to supply/demand side of the equation: https://twitter.com/BurggrabenH/status/1567929340737863680 https://twitter.com/BurggrabenH/status/1567929340737863680 Pretending that "we need 17% more electricity is nothing, and is easily solvable" is uneducated at best. China is building those very fast because you wouldn't want to be a worker in one of those construction projects. Even though I agree on principle that the dismantling of nuclear energy in EU is a disgrace.