6 ms·

the problem lies in the speakers. You'll never find speakers good enough to mimic how the sound of a struck chord vibrates through the entire structure of the p

by bsaul 4y ago

the problem lies in the speakers. You'll never find speakers good enough to mimic how the sound of a struck chord vibrates through the entire structure of the piano, then fills the room. This is why i laugh every time i see youtube videos comparing various models of super expensive grand piano : people will losten to them on their laptop speakers then conclude "oh i like this one better". Makes no sense at all..

hilbert42 4y ago
"Makes no sense at all." Same here. It's very strange. It seems to me people can get used to anything—and that they have done so. The atrocious speaker/sound systems in today's laptops are so bad that if retrofitted to ancient monophonic AM radios of the 1930s and '40s then those radios wouldn't have sold. The fact that so many are prepared to accept such atrocious audio means there's no longer any choice for anyone like me who'd pay more for good audio—simply no manufacturer makes a laptop with good audio these days. BTW, I did play piano a litte once so I've a bit of an understanding of what they're supposed to sound like.
- Joeri 4y ago
  simply no manufacturer makes a laptop with good audio these days Have you listened to the current 16 inch macbook pro? I think modern apple laptops can compare themselves in audio quality to any laptop from the past.
  - hilbert42 4y ago
    No, and I'm prepared to accept that there are exceptions (but even then, they must have limits as the physics of acoustics demands compromises when limited to the restrictive size of laptops). What I should have said is that whilst the electrical signal from the DAC is usually excellent (far better than almost any analog-only system), it's interface with the acoustic world (the speakers and their acoustic environment, baffling, enclosures etc.) is mostly terrible and at best only a poor compromise. It simply isn't possible with traditional speaker technology to provide an optimal environment inside a laptop. If it were then speaker manufacturers would have miniaturized their huge enclosures years ago. My complaint is that most laptop manufacturers don't even try to work within those restrictive bounds and that makes things much worse. The matter of having insufficient gain has little or nothing to do with the actual quality of the signal coming from the audio amplifier output, again it's usually quite excellent if one connects to headphones or to an external HiFi system. ____ BTW, I never said laptops had good audio (acoustic sound as opposed to electrical output). As far as I'm concerned their acoustics are all lousy when compared with a decent HiFi system. Sorry, I wrongly assumed that all readers were skilled in electronics and thus would have made a clear distinction between the quality of the audio signal within the electronics and that which actually emanates from the speakers. In fact, the electrical audio signals are nearly always several orders of magnitude better than what speakers can actually reproduce. Electronics people usually take that for granted.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- midoridensha 4y ago
  Has any laptop ever had decent sound? There's not exactly a lot of space there to put in a proper speaker, so it's really amazing the sound is as good as it is. Also, modern form factors and aesthetics prohibit placing speakers next to the screen, where they'd be pointed at the user's ears. If you want good sound from a laptop, the answer is pretty simple: 1) plug in some decent headphones, or 2) plug in some real speakers. You can get a pretty decent set of "PC speakers" consisting of satellite speakers and a subwoofer for not much money. You're not really supposed to listen to the laptop speakers if you care about sound and you're not traveling.
  - barkingcat 4y ago
    Try the macbook pro 16 speakers. They are decent-ish I find it funny that a lot of HN posts will expound in expletives about how a certain tech product is the best in class for example, how great macbook pro speakers are and then another poster will say that no laptop has ever had decent speakers… Also, in one post “this dolby surround atmos reproduces everything about the concert, with hundreds of musicians it’s like I’m there” and then in the next post “speakers will never reproduce even the sound of one acoustic piano that’s been mistreated and mistuned, the piano will still sound better and the speaker will never replicate the magic of acoustic instruments” and then in the very next post start quoting how the Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem proves that nobody ever needs anything over 44khz to reproduce exactly the sound of all acoustic instruments that ever existed. The story, as always, is more complex than any of these hot takes, and tech folks usually refuse to accept that there are multiple factors at play.
    - AlecSchueler 4y ago
      Best in class doesn't have to mean they're good, if they whole class was abysmal to begin with.
      - midoridensha 4y ago
        Who's the best-in-class dictator? Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, or Franco?
- samatman 4y ago
  The speakers on my laptop sound objectively better than my old combo tape deck and radio from the late 80s, it's not even close actually. Whether this is true of laptops that aren't 15/16" MBPs is a different question. Does it sound as good as wooden cabinet speaker? Obviously it doesn't. But it sounds better than AM radio is able to, presuming the audio file is of high enough bitrate.
- xeromal 4y ago
  Not talking about pianos at all, but if you're interested in a solid laptop sound system, my dell XPS 15 has ridiculously good sound. It's not as good as my DAC + Sennheiser headphone set up, but it is randomly great. It's not overly bassy or tinny. It just has a depth to it I haven't heard on laptop speakers before. Highly recommended.
jokteur 4y ago
I have once tested an electric piano that was using binaural audio (so you have to use headphones for the experience). I have to say, this was the most realistic sound I have heard from an electric piano, because spatially it made sense. I had the impression that the sound was coming from the piano, not from my headphones, and this made a huge difference. However, the feel (the touch) of a grand piano is still miles ahead of modern full fledged electric pianos, and I would prefer any day to play on a grand piano than an electric with all its gimmicks.
- teknico 4y ago
  It seems you’re referring to digital pianos. Usually the term “electric piano” refers to the likes of Rhodes and Wurlitzer. Also, try the action of a Kawai MP11 or MP11SE: it’s very close to a grand piano. Yamaha also has a great action but only in high end cabinet pianos, not in cheaper stage ones.
vintermann 4y ago
I agree. But you know, when you play music from a record, or even in most concerts, it passes through speakers too. Getting it as good as that is a fine achievement in my book, without being able to capture the whole "sound field".
- bsaul 4y ago
  Absolutely.. Acoustic instruments should be listened to live, and preferably in a small room, so that you don't need amplification.
kibibyte 4y ago
Fundamentally, you are correct and I will agree with you. But have you tried any of the higher end digitals from the latest generation of pianos, e.g. Kawai CA79/99 or Yamaha CLP-745/775/785? Those come with some pretty serious audio setups—with 4-6 speakers placed in different locations—that can really pack a punch with the high quality recorded samples from concert grands. As someone who regularly practices in his apartment on his digital and plays on acoustics with my piano teacher once a week in a small piano studio, I can confidently say that these higher quality digitals are nearly indistinguishable in terms of sound richness from those acoustics. (I'll be fair though, I think those acoustics leave quite a lot to be desired and aren't really in the best environments, but I would bet that they cost more than what I paid for my CA79.) Digitals will always be outclassed by a regularly-tuned decent quality acoustic that is well-placed in a room with decent acoustic characteristics, sure. However, modern higher-end digitals raise the bar quite a lot that, in my opinion, it makes the value proposition of, say, a Yahama U1 a little more questionable for the vast majority of people who aren't professionals or aren't able to set up an optimal acoustic environment at home. (Worth also mentioning, the key actions on higher-end modern digitals are also pretty damn good these days. My CA79 does a pretty good job at allowing me to play a light legato, and I felt like that experience was quite transferable to some pretty nice Yamaha and Kawai grands I was recently able to play around with. Now, I'm pretty sure I may begin to notice the limits when I start working through level 9/10 (or beyond) pieces in a few years, but that's the point that I'll know it's time to buy a home and put in a grand piano.)
- dharma1 4y ago
  Newer digital pianos with gigabytes worth of round robin samples at different velocity levels, and sympathetic resonance modelling at really, really good. But as far as they have come, for being immersed in always evolving sound and full expression I still prefer my early 80s Disklavier Yamaha U3 by a long margin. It’s a Japanese marvel of engineering - great acoustic sound, loads of solenoids inside it for self playing, early midi implementation and still looks brand new. I don’t know many electronic things I can buy today that will still be relevant and enjoyable 40 years from now. It wasn’t super expensive, around £4K, one of my most enjoyable purchases ever. The kids are learning on it now too and I think it will still be playable and retain its value for a long time. While it does take up some space it’s not huge like a grand, but If I moved to a larger house would love get a Yamaha grand. Having said that, for production work I sometimes use sampled pianos - in a busy mix they sound the same and I don’t have to mic up the piano.
zoltar 4y ago
A Kawai MP11 playing out some Magnepans and a sub feel as enjoyable as the Bösendorfer I used to noodle on. I'm pretty terrible, though. I'm glad I don't know what I'm missing. I don't have the room for that old big boy.
- teknico 4y ago
  The Kawai MP11SE is the king of the hill as far as stage piano actions go. My MP11 is a delight (after spending three days to replace all the felts in back of the keys, a known defect).
LeanderK 4y ago
that's fair but the sound is still better than all those usual uprights I have played on. Even the cheapest, out of tone upright straight out the dumpster has sound vibrating through the structure of the piano but it sounds like shit. Of course, if you invest a lot of money you will reach better a better sound, but that's not realistic for most. I usually play with headphones and if you invest in good ones you will get quite a pleasing quality.
jmpman 4y ago
Have you heard some of the newer pianos from Yamaha and Kawai which have transducers mounted to the soundboard? Then you’re turning the soundboard into the literal speaker.

by bsaul 4y ago

hilbert42 4y ago

"Makes no sense at all." Same here. It's very strange. It seems to me people can get used to anything—and that they have done so. The atrocious speaker/sound systems in today's laptops are so bad that if retrofitted to ancient monophonic AM radios of the 1930s and '40s then those radios wouldn't have sold. The fact that so many are prepared to accept such atrocious audio means there's no longer any choice for anyone like me who'd pay more for good audio—simply no manufacturer makes a laptop with good audio these days. BTW, I did play piano a litte once so I've a bit of an understanding of what they're supposed to sound like.

Joeri 4y ago
simply no manufacturer makes a laptop with good audio these days Have you listened to the current 16 inch macbook pro? I think modern apple laptops can compare themselves in audio quality to any laptop from the past.
- hilbert42 4y ago
  No, and I'm prepared to accept that there are exceptions (but even then, they must have limits as the physics of acoustics demands compromises when limited to the restrictive size of laptops). What I should have said is that whilst the electrical signal from the DAC is usually excellent (far better than almost any analog-only system), it's interface with the acoustic world (the speakers and their acoustic environment, baffling, enclosures etc.) is mostly terrible and at best only a poor compromise. It simply isn't possible with traditional speaker technology to provide an optimal environment inside a laptop. If it were then speaker manufacturers would have miniaturized their huge enclosures years ago. My complaint is that most laptop manufacturers don't even try to work within those restrictive bounds and that makes things much worse. The matter of having insufficient gain has little or nothing to do with the actual quality of the signal coming from the audio amplifier output, again it's usually quite excellent if one connects to headphones or to an external HiFi system. ____ BTW, I never said laptops had good audio (acoustic sound as opposed to electrical output). As far as I'm concerned their acoustics are all lousy when compared with a decent HiFi system. Sorry, I wrongly assumed that all readers were skilled in electronics and thus would have made a clear distinction between the quality of the audio signal within the electronics and that which actually emanates from the speakers. In fact, the electrical audio signals are nearly always several orders of magnitude better than what speakers can actually reproduce. Electronics people usually take that for granted.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
midoridensha 4y ago
Has any laptop ever had decent sound? There's not exactly a lot of space there to put in a proper speaker, so it's really amazing the sound is as good as it is. Also, modern form factors and aesthetics prohibit placing speakers next to the screen, where they'd be pointed at the user's ears. If you want good sound from a laptop, the answer is pretty simple: 1) plug in some decent headphones, or 2) plug in some real speakers. You can get a pretty decent set of "PC speakers" consisting of satellite speakers and a subwoofer for not much money. You're not really supposed to listen to the laptop speakers if you care about sound and you're not traveling.
- barkingcat 4y ago
  Try the macbook pro 16 speakers. They are decent-ish I find it funny that a lot of HN posts will expound in expletives about how a certain tech product is the best in class for example, how great macbook pro speakers are and then another poster will say that no laptop has ever had decent speakers… Also, in one post “this dolby surround atmos reproduces everything about the concert, with hundreds of musicians it’s like I’m there” and then in the next post “speakers will never reproduce even the sound of one acoustic piano that’s been mistreated and mistuned, the piano will still sound better and the speaker will never replicate the magic of acoustic instruments” and then in the very next post start quoting how the Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem proves that nobody ever needs anything over 44khz to reproduce exactly the sound of all acoustic instruments that ever existed. The story, as always, is more complex than any of these hot takes, and tech folks usually refuse to accept that there are multiple factors at play.
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    Best in class doesn't have to mean they're good, if they whole class was abysmal to begin with.
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      Who's the best-in-class dictator? Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, or Franco?
samatman 4y ago
The speakers on my laptop sound objectively better than my old combo tape deck and radio from the late 80s, it's not even close actually. Whether this is true of laptops that aren't 15/16" MBPs is a different question. Does it sound as good as wooden cabinet speaker? Obviously it doesn't. But it sounds better than AM radio is able to, presuming the audio file is of high enough bitrate.
xeromal 4y ago
Not talking about pianos at all, but if you're interested in a solid laptop sound system, my dell XPS 15 has ridiculously good sound. It's not as good as my DAC + Sennheiser headphone set up, but it is randomly great. It's not overly bassy or tinny. It just has a depth to it I haven't heard on laptop speakers before. Highly recommended.

jokteur 4y ago

I have once tested an electric piano that was using binaural audio (so you have to use headphones for the experience). I have to say, this was the most realistic sound I have heard from an electric piano, because spatially it made sense. I had the impression that the sound was coming from the piano, not from my headphones, and this made a huge difference. However, the feel (the touch) of a grand piano is still miles ahead of modern full fledged electric pianos, and I would prefer any day to play on a grand piano than an electric with all its gimmicks.

teknico 4y ago
It seems you’re referring to digital pianos. Usually the term “electric piano” refers to the likes of Rhodes and Wurlitzer. Also, try the action of a Kawai MP11 or MP11SE: it’s very close to a grand piano. Yamaha also has a great action but only in high end cabinet pianos, not in cheaper stage ones.

vintermann 4y ago

I agree. But you know, when you play music from a record, or even in most concerts, it passes through speakers too. Getting it as good as that is a fine achievement in my book, without being able to capture the whole "sound field".

bsaul 4y ago
Absolutely.. Acoustic instruments should be listened to live, and preferably in a small room, so that you don't need amplification.

kibibyte 4y ago

Fundamentally, you are correct and I will agree with you. But have you tried any of the higher end digitals from the latest generation of pianos, e.g. Kawai CA79/99 or Yamaha CLP-745/775/785? Those come with some pretty serious audio setups—with 4-6 speakers placed in different locations—that can really pack a punch with the high quality recorded samples from concert grands. As someone who regularly practices in his apartment on his digital and plays on acoustics with my piano teacher once a week in a small piano studio, I can confidently say that these higher quality digitals are nearly indistinguishable in terms of sound richness from those acoustics. (I'll be fair though, I think those acoustics leave quite a lot to be desired and aren't really in the best environments, but I would bet that they cost more than what I paid for my CA79.) Digitals will always be outclassed by a regularly-tuned decent quality acoustic that is well-placed in a room with decent acoustic characteristics, sure. However, modern higher-end digitals raise the bar quite a lot that, in my opinion, it makes the value proposition of, say, a Yahama U1 a little more questionable for the vast majority of people who aren't professionals or aren't able to set up an optimal acoustic environment at home. (Worth also mentioning, the key actions on higher-end modern digitals are also pretty damn good these days. My CA79 does a pretty good job at allowing me to play a light legato, and I felt like that experience was quite transferable to some pretty nice Yamaha and Kawai grands I was recently able to play around with. Now, I'm pretty sure I may begin to notice the limits when I start working through level 9/10 (or beyond) pieces in a few years, but that's the point that I'll know it's time to buy a home and put in a grand piano.)

dharma1 4y ago
Newer digital pianos with gigabytes worth of round robin samples at different velocity levels, and sympathetic resonance modelling at really, really good. But as far as they have come, for being immersed in always evolving sound and full expression I still prefer my early 80s Disklavier Yamaha U3 by a long margin. It’s a Japanese marvel of engineering - great acoustic sound, loads of solenoids inside it for self playing, early midi implementation and still looks brand new. I don’t know many electronic things I can buy today that will still be relevant and enjoyable 40 years from now. It wasn’t super expensive, around £4K, one of my most enjoyable purchases ever. The kids are learning on it now too and I think it will still be playable and retain its value for a long time. While it does take up some space it’s not huge like a grand, but If I moved to a larger house would love get a Yamaha grand. Having said that, for production work I sometimes use sampled pianos - in a busy mix they sound the same and I don’t have to mic up the piano.

zoltar 4y ago

A Kawai MP11 playing out some Magnepans and a sub feel as enjoyable as the Bösendorfer I used to noodle on. I'm pretty terrible, though. I'm glad I don't know what I'm missing. I don't have the room for that old big boy.

teknico 4y ago
The Kawai MP11SE is the king of the hill as far as stage piano actions go. My MP11 is a delight (after spending three days to replace all the felts in back of the keys, a known defect).

LeanderK 4y ago

that's fair but the sound is still better than all those usual uprights I have played on. Even the cheapest, out of tone upright straight out the dumpster has sound vibrating through the structure of the piano but it sounds like shit. Of course, if you invest a lot of money you will reach better a better sound, but that's not realistic for most. I usually play with headphones and if you invest in good ones you will get quite a pleasing quality.

jmpman 4y ago

Have you heard some of the newer pianos from Yamaha and Kawai which have transducers mounted to the soundboard? Then you’re turning the soundboard into the literal speaker.