5 ms·

Actually, we don't need cheap EVs. The only thing we really need is less ICEVs

by fyvhbhn 4y ago

ls15 4y ago
How does an economy work without affordable transportation?
- saagarjha 4y ago
  The strawman argument is "nobody has affordable transportation". The steelman one is "we add affordable public transit".
  - ls15 4y ago
    And when? Public transport is a strawman if it does not exist in sufficient quality and quantity to replace all personal transportation and it takes decades to get to that capacity. I am writing from Berlin. We enjoy one of the best public transport networks in the world, but it is still not affordable enough for many and there are still good reasons to own a car in Berlin.
    - fyvhbhn 4y ago
      It's not a straw man. I have my doubts you know what you are talking about. EVs for everyone doesn't work, and ICEVs even less so. People who really need it for their life style will either have to change their life style and habits or pay enough for it. And with respect to the economy: supply and demand will solve it
      - ls15 4y ago
        > It's not a straw man. What I meant to express was that the GP was making a fallacious argument themselves by claiming that mine was fallacious when it is not. Take personal transportation out of the equation without sufficient replacement and the economy (and quality of life, as well as social peace) will take a massive hit, because so many people rely on it for their needs. Transitions to better models are great if they are planned and executed well. Suddenly pricing people out of their lifes, because required planning and investment 20 years ago was avoided is not a great way to proceed if you value social peace.
  - notacoward 4y ago
    > The steelman one is "we add affordable public transit". What about better urban design so less transit of any kind is necessary?
dmitriid 4y ago
Yes. Yes, we do need cheap EVs and the infrastructure for them. I'm in Sweden, and the cheapest EVs are often more expensive than fully kitted-out ICE versions of the same cars. Even an ardent proponent of EVs will think twice before buying an EV (unless they are rich and live in the city center)
- fyvhbhn 4y ago
  I don't see the problem. If he thinks twice, he's going to save a ton of resources that may be used better elsewhere.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    No, he's not. If he's going to think twice, it means he's going to use ICE for longer.
    - fyvhbhn 4y ago
      Perhaps, doesn't even have to be a bad thing. E.g. producing a new BEV can have a worse impact than driving an ICEV a little bit longer. However, long-term, it is the task of governmental bodies to make the cost using ICEVs reflect the real cost to society, making it probably even less affordable.
      - dmitriid 4y ago
        So, you're not proposing to make EVs cheaper, but to make transportation as a whole unaffordable. And no, "affordable public transportation" doesn't solve the problem. I live in Sweden where you have busses going to even the most remote of places. The farther you are from a big city center, the more yo need a car. And unlike the US being far from a city doesn't mean you live in a big house where you can put your own charging station etc.
        fyvhbhn 4y ago
        I am proposing to make prices reflect the real cost. Even today many can't afford a car, this doesn't mean transportation as a whole is unaffordable for them. It is possible to live without a car, you know. > I live in Sweden where you have busses going to even the most remote of places. Sounds good. I live in Germany where you don't have that, I still don't need a car, even though I use one once in a while because it's so cheap. > The farther you are from a big city center, the more yo need a car. So what? Doesn't mean you need a car at the end of the day, let alone own a car, especially when you're not living in the US. It only means cars are more helpful than at the city centre. The same probably holds for your own helicopter

Actually, we don't need cheap EVs. The only thing we really need is less ICEVs

ls15 4y ago

How does an economy work without affordable transportation?

saagarjha 4y ago
The strawman argument is "nobody has affordable transportation". The steelman one is "we add affordable public transit".
- ls15 4y ago
  And when? Public transport is a strawman if it does not exist in sufficient quality and quantity to replace all personal transportation and it takes decades to get to that capacity. I am writing from Berlin. We enjoy one of the best public transport networks in the world, but it is still not affordable enough for many and there are still good reasons to own a car in Berlin.
  - fyvhbhn 4y ago
    It's not a straw man. I have my doubts you know what you are talking about. EVs for everyone doesn't work, and ICEVs even less so. People who really need it for their life style will either have to change their life style and habits or pay enough for it. And with respect to the economy: supply and demand will solve it
    - ls15 4y ago
      > It's not a straw man. What I meant to express was that the GP was making a fallacious argument themselves by claiming that mine was fallacious when it is not. Take personal transportation out of the equation without sufficient replacement and the economy (and quality of life, as well as social peace) will take a massive hit, because so many people rely on it for their needs. Transitions to better models are great if they are planned and executed well. Suddenly pricing people out of their lifes, because required planning and investment 20 years ago was avoided is not a great way to proceed if you value social peace.
- notacoward 4y ago
  > The steelman one is "we add affordable public transit". What about better urban design so less transit of any kind is necessary?

dmitriid 4y ago

Yes. Yes, we do need cheap EVs and the infrastructure for them. I'm in Sweden, and the cheapest EVs are often more expensive than fully kitted-out ICE versions of the same cars. Even an ardent proponent of EVs will think twice before buying an EV (unless they are rich and live in the city center)

fyvhbhn 4y ago
I don't see the problem. If he thinks twice, he's going to save a ton of resources that may be used better elsewhere.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  No, he's not. If he's going to think twice, it means he's going to use ICE for longer.
  - fyvhbhn 4y ago
    Perhaps, doesn't even have to be a bad thing. E.g. producing a new BEV can have a worse impact than driving an ICEV a little bit longer. However, long-term, it is the task of governmental bodies to make the cost using ICEVs reflect the real cost to society, making it probably even less affordable.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      So, you're not proposing to make EVs cheaper, but to make transportation as a whole unaffordable. And no, "affordable public transportation" doesn't solve the problem. I live in Sweden where you have busses going to even the most remote of places. The farther you are from a big city center, the more yo need a car. And unlike the US being far from a city doesn't mean you live in a big house where you can put your own charging station etc.
      - fyvhbhn 4y ago
        I am proposing to make prices reflect the real cost. Even today many can't afford a car, this doesn't mean transportation as a whole is unaffordable for them. It is possible to live without a car, you know. > I live in Sweden where you have busses going to even the most remote of places. Sounds good. I live in Germany where you don't have that, I still don't need a car, even though I use one once in a while because it's so cheap. > The farther you are from a big city center, the more yo need a car. So what? Doesn't mean you need a car at the end of the day, let alone own a car, especially when you're not living in the US. It only means cars are more helpful than at the city centre. The same probably holds for your own helicopter