6 ms·

I can buy 10 used but running ICE cars for the price of an EV and could probably buy a couple of years worth of gas for the money that I saved, even at current

by ls15 4y ago

I can buy 10 used but running ICE cars for the price of an EV and could probably buy a couple of years worth of gas for the money that I saved, even at current prices. We need some actually cheap EVs, so probably models that are not so full of electronics like the current ones. Just some basic models without self-driving hocus pocus and futuristic bling. I also would never buy a car that keeps up a constant network connection to its manufacturer, so that's a requirement I'd be looking for as well.

Underphil 4y ago
You and me both, but I think we're the minority. I want bell-and-whistle free ICE cars when I buy but those are becoming harder and harder to obtain.
- ls15 4y ago
  I'd be fine with a bell-and-whistle-free EV as well. I think there are just none on the market, except a couple of Chinese models that you cannot try before you buy from a Western country.
- vincnetas 4y ago
  Get VW eUP. It's discontinued but you could find year old ones. So almost new. Perfect city car.
gambiting 4y ago
>>We need some actually cheap EVs, so probably models that are not so full of electronics like the current ones. Just some basic models without self-driving hocus pocus and futuristic bling. Those exist, just buy yourself an e-Up/Citigo EV/Mii Electric, it's very cheap, it's very basic, has 160 miles range, it even comes with a normal analogue cluster. Or another cheap choice is an MG ZS EV or EV5 - both fantastic cars, both pretty basic without a whole lot of tech.
- ls15 4y ago
  More affordable than Tesla, but still 10x of the cheap used ICEV that they are competing with. But basic? https://www.just-auto.com/analysis/interior-design-and-technology-seat-mii/ https://www.just-auto.com/analysis/interior-design-and-techn... > The Mii doesn’t offer a built-in touchscreen – not even as an option. Instead, it comes fitted with a smartphone dock located on top of the dash. While it may appear low-tech compared to its rivals, it does the job by allowing the driver to link their phone to the car via two apps: Mii Drive and SEAT Connect. The latter provides remote access and management of the vehicle, so drivers can review driving data, parking position, the vehicle’s status, including doors and lights, manage the charging process via the e-Manager and the ability to control air-conditioning remotely from the app. How to repair this at home if it breaks? Can I make sure that my car does not send any data to the manufacturer?
  - gambiting 4y ago
    I mean, I have the e-UP so I can answer any questions you have I suppose. Yes, you can make sure the car doesn't communicate with the VW servers - either through the option in the menus, or if you don't trust that just pull out the SIM card below the dash. >>How to repair this at home if it breaks? If what breaks? >>but still 10x of the cheap used ICEV they are competing with I'm so confused why you say that a brand new EV is competing with a decade old petrol car(because only those will be 10x cheaper)? Like.....when I was car shopping it hasn't even crossed my mind to look at cars that old. I want a warranty and I want a very basic EV car - a decade old petrol car fulfils neither requirement.
    - ls15 4y ago
      Any of it, really. There are cars that you can fix at home with a hammer, but this is getting rare, unfortunately. > I'm so confused why you say that a brand new EV is competing with a decade old petrol car If people want to buy the cheapest vehicle, then they are limited to ICEV, because the cheapest EV is much more expensive.
      - 4y ago
fyvhbhn 4y ago
Actually, we don't need cheap EVs. The only thing we really need is less ICEVs
- ls15 4y ago
  How does an economy work without affordable transportation?
  - saagarjha 4y ago
    The strawman argument is "nobody has affordable transportation". The steelman one is "we add affordable public transit".
    - ls15 4y ago
      And when? Public transport is a strawman if it does not exist in sufficient quality and quantity to replace all personal transportation and it takes decades to get to that capacity. I am writing from Berlin. We enjoy one of the best public transport networks in the world, but it is still not affordable enough for many and there are still good reasons to own a car in Berlin.
      - fyvhbhn 4y ago
        It's not a straw man. I have my doubts you know what you are talking about. EVs for everyone doesn't work, and ICEVs even less so. People who really need it for their life style will either have to change their life style and habits or pay enough for it. And with respect to the economy: supply and demand will solve it
        ls15 4y ago
        > It's not a straw man. What I meant to express was that the GP was making a fallacious argument themselves by claiming that mine was fallacious when it is not. Take personal transportation out of the equation without sufficient replacement and the economy (and quality of life, as well as social peace) will take a massive hit, because so many people rely on it for their needs. Transitions to better models are great if they are planned and executed well. Suddenly pricing people out of their lifes, because required planning and investment 20 years ago was avoided is not a great way to proceed if you value social peace.

by ls15 4y ago

Underphil 4y ago

You and me both, but I think we're the minority. I want bell-and-whistle free ICE cars when I buy but those are becoming harder and harder to obtain.

ls15 4y ago
I'd be fine with a bell-and-whistle-free EV as well. I think there are just none on the market, except a couple of Chinese models that you cannot try before you buy from a Western country.
vincnetas 4y ago
Get VW eUP. It's discontinued but you could find year old ones. So almost new. Perfect city car.

gambiting 4y ago

>>We need some actually cheap EVs, so probably models that are not so full of electronics like the current ones. Just some basic models without self-driving hocus pocus and futuristic bling. Those exist, just buy yourself an e-Up/Citigo EV/Mii Electric, it's very cheap, it's very basic, has 160 miles range, it even comes with a normal analogue cluster. Or another cheap choice is an MG ZS EV or EV5 - both fantastic cars, both pretty basic without a whole lot of tech.

ls15 4y ago
More affordable than Tesla, but still 10x of the cheap used ICEV that they are competing with. But basic? https://www.just-auto.com/analysis/interior-design-and-technology-seat-mii/ https://www.just-auto.com/analysis/interior-design-and-techn... > The Mii doesn’t offer a built-in touchscreen – not even as an option. Instead, it comes fitted with a smartphone dock located on top of the dash. While it may appear low-tech compared to its rivals, it does the job by allowing the driver to link their phone to the car via two apps: Mii Drive and SEAT Connect. The latter provides remote access and management of the vehicle, so drivers can review driving data, parking position, the vehicle’s status, including doors and lights, manage the charging process via the e-Manager and the ability to control air-conditioning remotely from the app. How to repair this at home if it breaks? Can I make sure that my car does not send any data to the manufacturer?
- gambiting 4y ago
  I mean, I have the e-UP so I can answer any questions you have I suppose. Yes, you can make sure the car doesn't communicate with the VW servers - either through the option in the menus, or if you don't trust that just pull out the SIM card below the dash. >>How to repair this at home if it breaks? If what breaks? >>but still 10x of the cheap used ICEV they are competing with I'm so confused why you say that a brand new EV is competing with a decade old petrol car(because only those will be 10x cheaper)? Like.....when I was car shopping it hasn't even crossed my mind to look at cars that old. I want a warranty and I want a very basic EV car - a decade old petrol car fulfils neither requirement.
  - ls15 4y ago
    Any of it, really. There are cars that you can fix at home with a hammer, but this is getting rare, unfortunately. > I'm so confused why you say that a brand new EV is competing with a decade old petrol car If people want to buy the cheapest vehicle, then they are limited to ICEV, because the cheapest EV is much more expensive.
    - 4y ago

fyvhbhn 4y ago

Actually, we don't need cheap EVs. The only thing we really need is less ICEVs

ls15 4y ago
How does an economy work without affordable transportation?
- saagarjha 4y ago
  The strawman argument is "nobody has affordable transportation". The steelman one is "we add affordable public transit".
  - ls15 4y ago
    And when? Public transport is a strawman if it does not exist in sufficient quality and quantity to replace all personal transportation and it takes decades to get to that capacity. I am writing from Berlin. We enjoy one of the best public transport networks in the world, but it is still not affordable enough for many and there are still good reasons to own a car in Berlin.
    - fyvhbhn 4y ago
      It's not a straw man. I have my doubts you know what you are talking about. EVs for everyone doesn't work, and ICEVs even less so. People who really need it for their life style will either have to change their life style and habits or pay enough for it. And with respect to the economy: supply and demand will solve it
      - ls15 4y ago
        > It's not a straw man. What I meant to express was that the GP was making a fallacious argument themselves by claiming that mine was fallacious when it is not. Take personal transportation out of the equation without sufficient replacement and the economy (and quality of life, as well as social peace) will take a massive hit, because so many people rely on it for their needs. Transitions to better models are great if they are planned and executed well. Suddenly pricing people out of their lifes, because required planning and investment 20 years ago was avoided is not a great way to proceed if you value social peace.