10 ms·

As an owner of two refurbished upright pianos I just wanted to let folks know that after buying them and then starting to learn via ear and YouTube - in six mon

As an owner of two refurbished upright pianos I just wanted to let folks know that after buying them and then starting to learn via ear and YouTube - in six months - it all becomes worth it. The tone and sounds with a pedal cannot match an electronic one( which I detest). I hope to one day donate one to the local airport to become the first public good free to play airport piano in India.

antiterra 4y ago
I love a great piano, but: My digital piano sounds way better than any of the uprights my family had, being made from samples of a $100k+ grand. It models sympathetic resonance of unplayed strings. It never goes out of tune and I can play it any time of day with headphones. The key action is acceptable, the pedal feel is good. I can’t see buying a real piano making much sense for me.
- j7ake 4y ago
  Also one can quickly switch between baroque tuning, Pythagorean tuning, to modern tuning at the touch of a button. You have access to a wider palette of sounds. Key actions can be just as good as uprights or grands, it’s a matter of how much you want to pay. Kawaii in my opinion has best actions for electric.
  - ludston 4y ago
    Switching tuning systems is an exciting gimmick but it isn't really a concern for 99% of piano players. Not to mention the majority of non musicians that cannot hear the difference anyway.
    - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
      The difference between Pythagorean and equal temperament is as much as almost 1/3rd of a half step. You don't need to be a musician to hear that.
      - ludston 4y ago
        Go and listen to a beginner violin recital and then tell me that again seriously. If you don't need to be a musician to hear that, then why is there such a small subgroup that can actually play their instrument in tune?
        adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
        there's a big difference between being able to hear a difference and being able to fix tuning in real time. almost anyone could tell you by listening that the notes aren't the same pitch. most will be able to tell you which is higher, and fewer will be able to identify intonation in context.
        ludston 4y ago
        That's certainly the case if you play two notes next to each other and then ask, "Which one is higher". But try adding in the tiniest bit of complexity, say, put the two different notes in the middle of a chord and suddenly most people will no longer be able to tell what is different. Most people listening to a chord can't even sing the individual notes of the chord, let alone pick out whether it is tuned to just or equal temperament. But to return to the context of the original point, which is that most serious piano players are going to value an electronic keyboard that can adjust tuning systems a lot less than an acoustic instrument that just... Sounds better. In most musical contexts featuring keyboards you need equal temperament anyway, unless you're expecting the pianist to update the tuning system every time they play a chord with a different root. I'm not going to argue that well tuned music doesn't sound better, but it just isn't pragmatic for piano in most contexts.
- Stratoscope 4y ago
  Mind if I ask which digital piano you have? Thanks!
  - teknico 4y ago
    I’ve owned Roland, Casio, and mostly Yamaha digital pianos, but since I tried a Kawai MP11SE, my hands won’t settle for anything less. I own an MP11 now: same action, fewer sounds, still good enough.
- bsaul 4y ago
  the problem lies in the speakers. You'll never find speakers good enough to mimic how the sound of a struck chord vibrates through the entire structure of the piano, then fills the room. This is why i laugh every time i see youtube videos comparing various models of super expensive grand piano : people will losten to them on their laptop speakers then conclude "oh i like this one better". Makes no sense at all..
  - hilbert42 4y ago
    "Makes no sense at all." Same here. It's very strange. It seems to me people can get used to anything—and that they have done so. The atrocious speaker/sound systems in today's laptops are so bad that if retrofitted to ancient monophonic AM radios of the 1930s and '40s then those radios wouldn't have sold. The fact that so many are prepared to accept such atrocious audio means there's no longer any choice for anyone like me who'd pay more for good audio—simply no manufacturer makes a laptop with good audio these days. BTW, I did play piano a litte once so I've a bit of an understanding of what they're supposed to sound like.
    - Joeri 4y ago
      simply no manufacturer makes a laptop with good audio these days Have you listened to the current 16 inch macbook pro? I think modern apple laptops can compare themselves in audio quality to any laptop from the past.
      - hilbert42 4y ago
        No, and I'm prepared to accept that there are exceptions (but even then, they must have limits as the physics of acoustics demands compromises when limited to the restrictive size of laptops). What I should have said is that whilst the electrical signal from the DAC is usually excellent (far better than almost any analog-only system), it's interface with the acoustic world (the speakers and their acoustic environment, baffling, enclosures etc.) is mostly terrible and at best only a poor compromise. It simply isn't possible with traditional speaker technology to provide an optimal environment inside a laptop. If it were then speaker manufacturers would have miniaturized their huge enclosures years ago. My complaint is that most laptop manufacturers don't even try to work within those restrictive bounds and that makes things much worse. The matter of having insufficient gain has little or nothing to do with the actual quality of the signal coming from the audio amplifier output, again it's usually quite excellent if one connects to headphones or to an external HiFi system. ____ BTW, I never said laptops had good audio (acoustic sound as opposed to electrical output). As far as I'm concerned their acoustics are all lousy when compared with a decent HiFi system. Sorry, I wrongly assumed that all readers were skilled in electronics and thus would have made a clear distinction between the quality of the audio signal within the electronics and that which actually emanates from the speakers. In fact, the electrical audio signals are nearly always several orders of magnitude better than what speakers can actually reproduce. Electronics people usually take that for granted.
- andbberger 4y ago
  but if you've ever actually played that $100k+ grand you're pretty much spoiled for life
  - kashunstva 4y ago
    > but if you've ever actually played that $100k+ grand you're pretty much spoiled for life This. I am a full-time collaborative pianist. Playing on all kinds on instruments comes with the territory. Most grands at venues are poorly maintained. No attention to regulation on the action even if they’re occasionally tuned. But my well-attended-to Steinway B that I spend three hours a day on at home can’t be compared to any of the digital keyboards that are in circulation now. That they have faithfully rendered acoustical samples is fabulous but the poor reproduction of the sound in 3 dimensional space detracts significantly. The ‘B’ that I play resonates over nearly 7 feet in length. Maybe that problem could be solved with speaker placement in the digital world. But the action on digitals is just not solved problem yet. Compared to the average upright or poorly maintained grand, close - even superior. Compared to a fine well-regulated grand action, there’s more work to do. All of that said, I’m glad the digital keyboards exist, and the innovation is welcome especially if it opens up piano playing to a wider range of home musicians and kids.
    - TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
      You're comparing something that costs $35k and needs constant maintenance with something that costs $3k (adequate) and $10k or so (top end) and requires almost no maintenance at all. Add a $15k studio monitor system to a $10k sampled weighted-action piano and it's going to sound pretty decent. Actions are getting better all the time - although manufacturers are worried about competing with their own premium products so they tend to cap the action quality on electronic ranges. And for comparison, modern $10-15k baby grand acoustics tend to sound a bit crap too. You get all the non-linearities of a shorter string length with a so-so action. And they're rarely kept in tune and maintained properly.
      - j7ake 4y ago
        I’d happy take a 35k Steinway B if available. Quick search says model B is almost 100k https://bradfieldpiano.com/steinway-piano-cost/#:~:text=Model%20B%3A%20Measuring%206%E2%80%B2%2010,ranges%20from%20%2492%2C400%20to%20%24101%2C700 https://bradfieldpiano.com/steinway-piano-cost/#:~:text=Mode....
- ghosty141 4y ago
  My main problem wouldn't even be the sound but the action just doesn't feel right. For me this is one of the most importants parts in a piano, the feeling of the keys. Most digital pianos I've tried (to be fair, not so many) didn't even come close to the action of a real piano. This was even the case for upper mid range instruments (10k).
  - vintermann 4y ago
    I've got one with decent response - considering that plenty of upright pianos have unpleasant response too - but it would be good to have an actually good one, or even better a configurable one. What I'd like was a digital piano that was as configurable in its response/action as Pianoteq is on the acoustic model parameters. How hard can it be?
    - prirun 4y ago
      Pretty hard, because there isn't enough leverage in the smaller action of digital pianos.
      - LgWoodenBadger 4y ago
        You're probably right, but then I think about all the variation that's been achieved with keyboard switches and I figure nobody has even bothered to try with piano keys
      - vintermann 4y ago
        Couldn't you have, like, multiple tunable rubber bands at different lengths? Giving you whatever resistance curve you want? I feel like this is something that should have a mechanical solution.
      - teknico 4y ago
        The Kawai MP11SE gets quite close: https://kawaius.com/technology/wooden-key-actions/ https://kawaius.com/technology/wooden-key-actions/
- lioeters 4y ago
  I've had a Nord keyboard for a couple years now, and I love it. It comes with lovely acoustic piano sounds. The key action feels good to play. It has audio out for headphones, recording, or PA. It's portable, and doesn't need to be tuned. For many/most people, the compromise (and advantages) compared to a real piano is worth it. That said, one day I dream of living in a house with a real piano. And an upright bass and a drum set.
- jmpman 4y ago
  Have you tried a PianoDisc Quiet system on a baby grand with a Renner action? The built in samples are reasonable, but you can always output to PianoTeq for higher quality. I find it an optimal combination. Of course, the space and cost requirements are extreme, but damn is it nice.
- collegeburner 4y ago
  well yeah, uprights weren't built for the best sound. if you ask me, the order is mid sample < mid upright < good sample < good piano. i use keyscape, one of the better synth pianos with a massive ass sample library. i also own a 20s mason & hamlin, and there are absolutely differences. i don't bother micing up my piano if i'm recording something electronic, but the difference is absolutely there especially for classical performances where dynamics are super important. for fun, me and a couple buddies recorded on a real c7 and keyscape's, same thing, and we all preferred the real mccoy blind tested every time.

antiterra 4y ago

I love a great piano, but: My digital piano sounds way better than any of the uprights my family had, being made from samples of a $100k+ grand. It models sympathetic resonance of unplayed strings. It never goes out of tune and I can play it any time of day with headphones. The key action is acceptable, the pedal feel is good. I can’t see buying a real piano making much sense for me.

j7ake 4y ago
Also one can quickly switch between baroque tuning, Pythagorean tuning, to modern tuning at the touch of a button. You have access to a wider palette of sounds. Key actions can be just as good as uprights or grands, it’s a matter of how much you want to pay. Kawaii in my opinion has best actions for electric.
- ludston 4y ago
  Switching tuning systems is an exciting gimmick but it isn't really a concern for 99% of piano players. Not to mention the majority of non musicians that cannot hear the difference anyway.
  - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
    The difference between Pythagorean and equal temperament is as much as almost 1/3rd of a half step. You don't need to be a musician to hear that.
    - ludston 4y ago
      Go and listen to a beginner violin recital and then tell me that again seriously. If you don't need to be a musician to hear that, then why is there such a small subgroup that can actually play their instrument in tune?
      - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
        there's a big difference between being able to hear a difference and being able to fix tuning in real time. almost anyone could tell you by listening that the notes aren't the same pitch. most will be able to tell you which is higher, and fewer will be able to identify intonation in context.
        ludston 4y ago
        That's certainly the case if you play two notes next to each other and then ask, "Which one is higher". But try adding in the tiniest bit of complexity, say, put the two different notes in the middle of a chord and suddenly most people will no longer be able to tell what is different. Most people listening to a chord can't even sing the individual notes of the chord, let alone pick out whether it is tuned to just or equal temperament. But to return to the context of the original point, which is that most serious piano players are going to value an electronic keyboard that can adjust tuning systems a lot less than an acoustic instrument that just... Sounds better. In most musical contexts featuring keyboards you need equal temperament anyway, unless you're expecting the pianist to update the tuning system every time they play a chord with a different root. I'm not going to argue that well tuned music doesn't sound better, but it just isn't pragmatic for piano in most contexts.
Stratoscope 4y ago
Mind if I ask which digital piano you have? Thanks!
- teknico 4y ago
  I’ve owned Roland, Casio, and mostly Yamaha digital pianos, but since I tried a Kawai MP11SE, my hands won’t settle for anything less. I own an MP11 now: same action, fewer sounds, still good enough.
bsaul 4y ago
the problem lies in the speakers. You'll never find speakers good enough to mimic how the sound of a struck chord vibrates through the entire structure of the piano, then fills the room. This is why i laugh every time i see youtube videos comparing various models of super expensive grand piano : people will losten to them on their laptop speakers then conclude "oh i like this one better". Makes no sense at all..
- hilbert42 4y ago
  "Makes no sense at all." Same here. It's very strange. It seems to me people can get used to anything—and that they have done so. The atrocious speaker/sound systems in today's laptops are so bad that if retrofitted to ancient monophonic AM radios of the 1930s and '40s then those radios wouldn't have sold. The fact that so many are prepared to accept such atrocious audio means there's no longer any choice for anyone like me who'd pay more for good audio—simply no manufacturer makes a laptop with good audio these days. BTW, I did play piano a litte once so I've a bit of an understanding of what they're supposed to sound like.
  - Joeri 4y ago
    simply no manufacturer makes a laptop with good audio these days Have you listened to the current 16 inch macbook pro? I think modern apple laptops can compare themselves in audio quality to any laptop from the past.
    - hilbert42 4y ago
      No, and I'm prepared to accept that there are exceptions (but even then, they must have limits as the physics of acoustics demands compromises when limited to the restrictive size of laptops). What I should have said is that whilst the electrical signal from the DAC is usually excellent (far better than almost any analog-only system), it's interface with the acoustic world (the speakers and their acoustic environment, baffling, enclosures etc.) is mostly terrible and at best only a poor compromise. It simply isn't possible with traditional speaker technology to provide an optimal environment inside a laptop. If it were then speaker manufacturers would have miniaturized their huge enclosures years ago. My complaint is that most laptop manufacturers don't even try to work within those restrictive bounds and that makes things much worse. The matter of having insufficient gain has little or nothing to do with the actual quality of the signal coming from the audio amplifier output, again it's usually quite excellent if one connects to headphones or to an external HiFi system. ____ BTW, I never said laptops had good audio (acoustic sound as opposed to electrical output). As far as I'm concerned their acoustics are all lousy when compared with a decent HiFi system. Sorry, I wrongly assumed that all readers were skilled in electronics and thus would have made a clear distinction between the quality of the audio signal within the electronics and that which actually emanates from the speakers. In fact, the electrical audio signals are nearly always several orders of magnitude better than what speakers can actually reproduce. Electronics people usually take that for granted.
andbberger 4y ago
but if you've ever actually played that $100k+ grand you're pretty much spoiled for life
- kashunstva 4y ago
  > but if you've ever actually played that $100k+ grand you're pretty much spoiled for life This. I am a full-time collaborative pianist. Playing on all kinds on instruments comes with the territory. Most grands at venues are poorly maintained. No attention to regulation on the action even if they’re occasionally tuned. But my well-attended-to Steinway B that I spend three hours a day on at home can’t be compared to any of the digital keyboards that are in circulation now. That they have faithfully rendered acoustical samples is fabulous but the poor reproduction of the sound in 3 dimensional space detracts significantly. The ‘B’ that I play resonates over nearly 7 feet in length. Maybe that problem could be solved with speaker placement in the digital world. But the action on digitals is just not solved problem yet. Compared to the average upright or poorly maintained grand, close - even superior. Compared to a fine well-regulated grand action, there’s more work to do. All of that said, I’m glad the digital keyboards exist, and the innovation is welcome especially if it opens up piano playing to a wider range of home musicians and kids.
  - TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
    You're comparing something that costs $35k and needs constant maintenance with something that costs $3k (adequate) and $10k or so (top end) and requires almost no maintenance at all. Add a $15k studio monitor system to a $10k sampled weighted-action piano and it's going to sound pretty decent. Actions are getting better all the time - although manufacturers are worried about competing with their own premium products so they tend to cap the action quality on electronic ranges. And for comparison, modern $10-15k baby grand acoustics tend to sound a bit crap too. You get all the non-linearities of a shorter string length with a so-so action. And they're rarely kept in tune and maintained properly.
    - j7ake 4y ago
      I’d happy take a 35k Steinway B if available. Quick search says model B is almost 100k https://bradfieldpiano.com/steinway-piano-cost/#:~:text=Model%20B%3A%20Measuring%206%E2%80%B2%2010,ranges%20from%20%2492%2C400%20to%20%24101%2C700 https://bradfieldpiano.com/steinway-piano-cost/#:~:text=Mode....
ghosty141 4y ago
My main problem wouldn't even be the sound but the action just doesn't feel right. For me this is one of the most importants parts in a piano, the feeling of the keys. Most digital pianos I've tried (to be fair, not so many) didn't even come close to the action of a real piano. This was even the case for upper mid range instruments (10k).
- vintermann 4y ago
  I've got one with decent response - considering that plenty of upright pianos have unpleasant response too - but it would be good to have an actually good one, or even better a configurable one. What I'd like was a digital piano that was as configurable in its response/action as Pianoteq is on the acoustic model parameters. How hard can it be?
  - prirun 4y ago
    Pretty hard, because there isn't enough leverage in the smaller action of digital pianos.
    - LgWoodenBadger 4y ago
      You're probably right, but then I think about all the variation that's been achieved with keyboard switches and I figure nobody has even bothered to try with piano keys
    - vintermann 4y ago
      Couldn't you have, like, multiple tunable rubber bands at different lengths? Giving you whatever resistance curve you want? I feel like this is something that should have a mechanical solution.
    - teknico 4y ago
      The Kawai MP11SE gets quite close: https://kawaius.com/technology/wooden-key-actions/ https://kawaius.com/technology/wooden-key-actions/
lioeters 4y ago
I've had a Nord keyboard for a couple years now, and I love it. It comes with lovely acoustic piano sounds. The key action feels good to play. It has audio out for headphones, recording, or PA. It's portable, and doesn't need to be tuned. For many/most people, the compromise (and advantages) compared to a real piano is worth it. That said, one day I dream of living in a house with a real piano. And an upright bass and a drum set.
jmpman 4y ago
Have you tried a PianoDisc Quiet system on a baby grand with a Renner action? The built in samples are reasonable, but you can always output to PianoTeq for higher quality. I find it an optimal combination. Of course, the space and cost requirements are extreme, but damn is it nice.
collegeburner 4y ago
well yeah, uprights weren't built for the best sound. if you ask me, the order is mid sample < mid upright < good sample < good piano. i use keyscape, one of the better synth pianos with a massive ass sample library. i also own a 20s mason & hamlin, and there are absolutely differences. i don't bother micing up my piano if i'm recording something electronic, but the difference is absolutely there especially for classical performances where dynamics are super important. for fun, me and a couple buddies recorded on a real c7 and keyscape's, same thing, and we all preferred the real mccoy blind tested every time.