6 ms·

Curious - how much would charging costs have to increase for the cost of driving an EV to match that of an ICE car?

LeoPanthera 4y ago
This article is talking about the cost of public charging (in the UK), which is much more expensive that charging at home, which of course is where the vast majority of EV charging occurs. So the answer depends on where and when you charge.
- 2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
  To elaborate: If you're using public chargers only, EV's are already more expensive than ICE cars in parts of Europe. The energy market is rather... interesting at the moment.
  - ramraj07 4y ago
    As it should be.. public chargers are quite expensive infra-wise since they need to support fast charging.
    - gambiting 4y ago
      What do you mean they "need" to support fast charging? Majority of public charging points in this country are just type 2, 3.6/7.2kW chargers, CCS rapid chargers are outnumbered probably 1:10. And a simple 7.2kW point costs about £1500-2000 to install(commercially, at home it's cheaper) - hardly an extravagant expense.
- buro9 4y ago
  The vast majority of people in the UK do not have their own private driveway adjoining their property. Everyone I personally know uses public charging. Currently the way people are going is to know which car parks and shops still have free charging and to use those but they all know it doesn't work in the long run.
  - highwaylights 4y ago
    I see more and more of the public chargers with trash bags taped over them, which is a bit sad I guess, but probably a sign of the times we're living in now.
    - tirant 4y ago
      Aldi Süd was one of the typical free charging locations. Since this summer they have closed all their chargers and they plan now to start charging around 0.40€/kWh.
shapefrog 4y ago
"The hike in price means drivers who only use the public network to charge vehicles pay around 18p per mile for electricity. That is just 1p less per mile for a petrol car, based on someone driving at an average of 40 miles to the gallon, the motoring group said. The cost per mile for charging electric vehicles at home is around 9p per mile for the average-sized car. The BBC has been told most EV drivers charge at home overnight." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63029226 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63029226 64p per kWh vs £1.90 per litre looks like parity between the two ~3 kWh ~= 1 litre petrol a fair estimate (~11 kWh ~= 1 us gallon)? Obviously your mileage may vary.
- dr_dshiv 4y ago
  If you live inside a European city, how do you charge your car? I don’t see cords going inside of windows… I only ever see public spots. What gives?
  - dncornholio 4y ago
    Have an EV-plug installed into the side of my house. I run a cable over the crosswalk to the car from there.
  - this_is_not_you 4y ago
    "Inside a European city" is quite a broad concept. Some people will indeed have parking next to where they live. Otherwise the next best option is to charge the car at the place they work if they commute by car and their employer offers that. Other options are to include charging into your mental overhead and use options whenever you are out shopping (larger supermarkets with parking often have charging options), training (parking next to football fields might have charging), use public charging spots but that can be time consuming when your next one is further away. Source: We own an electric car and charge at home but we recently considered moving to a place without home charging and had to figure out how we would deal with that.
    - dr_dshiv 4y ago
      < “Inside a European city” is quite a broad concept Is it though? Paris, London, Berlin, Amsterdam, Madrid, Rome… dominated by 3-5 story mixed-use, with some special area for skyscrapers, and farmland near to the edge of the city. (Or, near by American standards) “Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way”
Hamuko 4y ago
Are you talking about fuel cost alone or all costs? Because the cost structure is very different and depends a lot on the region. You might have a higher upfront cost because EVs tend to be pricier than their ICE counterparts, but you might save on road taxes (at least if they're based on CO2 emissions) and on regular service, but lose out on things like tyre/suspension wear (heavy cars, lots of torque) and insurance (at least Tesla rates are insane).
ls15 4y ago
I can buy 10 used but running ICE cars for the price of an EV and could probably buy a couple of years worth of gas for the money that I saved, even at current prices. We need some actually cheap EVs, so probably models that are not so full of electronics like the current ones. Just some basic models without self-driving hocus pocus and futuristic bling. I also would never buy a car that keeps up a constant network connection to its manufacturer, so that's a requirement I'd be looking for as well.
- Underphil 4y ago
  You and me both, but I think we're the minority. I want bell-and-whistle free ICE cars when I buy but those are becoming harder and harder to obtain.
  - ls15 4y ago
    I'd be fine with a bell-and-whistle-free EV as well. I think there are just none on the market, except a couple of Chinese models that you cannot try before you buy from a Western country.
  - vincnetas 4y ago
    Get VW eUP. It's discontinued but you could find year old ones. So almost new. Perfect city car.
- gambiting 4y ago
  >>We need some actually cheap EVs, so probably models that are not so full of electronics like the current ones. Just some basic models without self-driving hocus pocus and futuristic bling. Those exist, just buy yourself an e-Up/Citigo EV/Mii Electric, it's very cheap, it's very basic, has 160 miles range, it even comes with a normal analogue cluster. Or another cheap choice is an MG ZS EV or EV5 - both fantastic cars, both pretty basic without a whole lot of tech.
  - ls15 4y ago
    More affordable than Tesla, but still 10x of the cheap used ICEV that they are competing with. But basic? https://www.just-auto.com/analysis/interior-design-and-technology-seat-mii/ https://www.just-auto.com/analysis/interior-design-and-techn... > The Mii doesn’t offer a built-in touchscreen – not even as an option. Instead, it comes fitted with a smartphone dock located on top of the dash. While it may appear low-tech compared to its rivals, it does the job by allowing the driver to link their phone to the car via two apps: Mii Drive and SEAT Connect. The latter provides remote access and management of the vehicle, so drivers can review driving data, parking position, the vehicle’s status, including doors and lights, manage the charging process via the e-Manager and the ability to control air-conditioning remotely from the app. How to repair this at home if it breaks? Can I make sure that my car does not send any data to the manufacturer?
moandcompany 4y ago
For EV drivers mostly relying on public, "fast" charging, their energy costs are getting extremely close to, and can exceed, the fuel costs of ICE drivers. The main way for the energy costs to be cheaper for EV drivers relies on charging at home or at work where it may be subsidized/free. Using Anecdata from the United States The energy or fuel cost of driving an EV versus an ICE car varies primarily based on the following factors: - Where and When the EV is being charged (e.g. at Home versus at a Public Charging Station) - Cost of Electricity in the Region - Cost of Gasoline in the Region Let's use the state of California for an example and calculate the general fuel/energy cost per mile driven. Where and When: Some residential power customers are on time-of-use billing plans which typically charge premium rates during peak hours (daytime-to-early evening, and substantially cheaper rates during off-peak hours. Pricing can also go up by usage tiers. Some EV drivers are able to charge exclusively at home, and/or have subsidized charging at work. It's almost always more economical for the EV driver to charge at home/work, however home/office chargers will typically be limited to not-"fast" charging speeds (L1 or L2 charging). The average residential electricity rate in California is ~$0.30/kWh. Many Public EV charging stations offer "fast" (L3) charging speeds and are convenient or necessary to use for some EV drivers. Many California public EV charging stations also now have variable pricing based on time of day and their location. The rates can vary from ~$0.30-$0.50+/kWh at EVgo stations or Tesla Superchargers, as examples. Typical EV efficiencies I've seen are around 3.5-4.0 miles driven per kWh consumed. Assuming the upper end of 4.0 mi/kWh, the energy cost per mile driven is around $0.08/mi at the low end, and $0.13+/mi at the upper end with the above energy prices. If we assume an ICE or hybrid vehicle with average fuel economy of 35mi/gallon, and gasoline costs typically range from $4.50-$5.50/gallon, the fuel cost per mile driven is around $0.13/mi at the low end and $0.16+/mi at the higher end. For fun, if we took a typical Toyota Prius from the last 10+ years, with average fuel economy of 50mi/gallon, the fuel cost per mile driven is around $0.09/mi at the low end and $0.11+/mi at the higher end. The prices for Public EV charging fluctuate, as do the prices for gasoline. Generally, if someone is driving an EV and primarily relying on public "fast" charging, their energy cost per mile driven is really not that different from the ICE car examples, and higher than the average Prius driver. (I have an EV and ICE vehicles)
- dmitriid 4y ago
friendzis 4y ago
You cannot give one figure here. The only comparable metric is cost per km or equivalent consumption (which is basically the same thing in different units), which is function on 4 variables: ICE/BEV consumption and electricity/fuel price. Fuel cost equivalent BEV consumption (expressed in fuel per distance, e.g. l/100km) is equal to [C_e * P_e] / P_f = C_e * [P_e / P_f]; where C_e = BEV electricity consumption; P_e = Price of electricity; P_f = Price of fuel. With C_e = 20 kWh/100km; you need [P_e / P_f] ~= 0,35 to break even. With fuel prices in the [1.7 -- 1.9] range you need electricity prices in [0.59 -- 0.67] range. Sibling comments list UK prices to be P_e = 0.65; P_f = 1.9; yielding equivalent consumption is 6.8 l/100km. (34.5 mpg according to google) In my country prices are roughly P_e = 0.59; P_f = [1.65 -- 1.75] giving equivalent consumption of roughly [7.15 -- 6.75]. BEV consumption is a bitch for comparison. Your trip computer displays battery-to-controller consumption, which is what you pay at public charger, but when charging at home you pay for grid consumption which includes charging losses.
ridiculous_fish 4y ago
Here in San Jose, CA, I have one of the most efficient EVs on the market (4 miles per kWH) and my off-peak charging rate is 25c/kWH ($0.25) which is high relative to other states. That's 6.25 cents per mile. For comparison a 30 MPG car at $5/gallon is 16.7 cents per mile. So your answer in my situation is 2.7x. One can reasonably quibble about other costs but what surprised me is that it's within an order of magnitude.
- saagarjha 4y ago
  If you have a Leaf, it's not too hard to push it past 4.5 mi/kWh ;) We're on the same plan as you are, and last week we found that charging it at the office (which used to be significantly more expensive than at home) is now 2x cheaper that it is from our garage, so that's where we're going to all our charging from now on. Electricity prices for off-peak usage going from 5¢/kWh to 25¢/kWh at home really hurts. I get free charging at work, but alas I bike so the car gets charged at the other office…
- sideshowb 4y ago
  The most efficient ice cars get 60mpg so comparing like with like it's even closer!
fyvhbhn 4y ago
External costs included?

This article is talking about the cost of public charging (in the UK), which is much more expensive that charging at home, which of course is where the vast majority of EV charging occurs. So the answer depends on where and when you charge.

2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
To elaborate: If you're using public chargers only, EV's are already more expensive than ICE cars in parts of Europe. The energy market is rather... interesting at the moment.
- ramraj07 4y ago
  As it should be.. public chargers are quite expensive infra-wise since they need to support fast charging.
  - gambiting 4y ago
    What do you mean they "need" to support fast charging? Majority of public charging points in this country are just type 2, 3.6/7.2kW chargers, CCS rapid chargers are outnumbered probably 1:10. And a simple 7.2kW point costs about £1500-2000 to install(commercially, at home it's cheaper) - hardly an extravagant expense.
buro9 4y ago
The vast majority of people in the UK do not have their own private driveway adjoining their property. Everyone I personally know uses public charging. Currently the way people are going is to know which car parks and shops still have free charging and to use those but they all know it doesn't work in the long run.
- highwaylights 4y ago
  I see more and more of the public chargers with trash bags taped over them, which is a bit sad I guess, but probably a sign of the times we're living in now.
  - tirant 4y ago
    Aldi Süd was one of the typical free charging locations. Since this summer they have closed all their chargers and they plan now to start charging around 0.40€/kWh.

shapefrog 4y ago

"The hike in price means drivers who only use the public network to charge vehicles pay around 18p per mile for electricity. That is just 1p less per mile for a petrol car, based on someone driving at an average of 40 miles to the gallon, the motoring group said. The cost per mile for charging electric vehicles at home is around 9p per mile for the average-sized car. The BBC has been told most EV drivers charge at home overnight." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63029226 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63029226 64p per kWh vs £1.90 per litre looks like parity between the two ~3 kWh ~= 1 litre petrol a fair estimate (~11 kWh ~= 1 us gallon)? Obviously your mileage may vary.

dr_dshiv 4y ago
If you live inside a European city, how do you charge your car? I don’t see cords going inside of windows… I only ever see public spots. What gives?
- dncornholio 4y ago
  Have an EV-plug installed into the side of my house. I run a cable over the crosswalk to the car from there.
- this_is_not_you 4y ago
  "Inside a European city" is quite a broad concept. Some people will indeed have parking next to where they live. Otherwise the next best option is to charge the car at the place they work if they commute by car and their employer offers that. Other options are to include charging into your mental overhead and use options whenever you are out shopping (larger supermarkets with parking often have charging options), training (parking next to football fields might have charging), use public charging spots but that can be time consuming when your next one is further away. Source: We own an electric car and charge at home but we recently considered moving to a place without home charging and had to figure out how we would deal with that.
  - dr_dshiv 4y ago
    < “Inside a European city” is quite a broad concept Is it though? Paris, London, Berlin, Amsterdam, Madrid, Rome… dominated by 3-5 story mixed-use, with some special area for skyscrapers, and farmland near to the edge of the city. (Or, near by American standards) “Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way”

Hamuko 4y ago

Are you talking about fuel cost alone or all costs? Because the cost structure is very different and depends a lot on the region. You might have a higher upfront cost because EVs tend to be pricier than their ICE counterparts, but you might save on road taxes (at least if they're based on CO2 emissions) and on regular service, but lose out on things like tyre/suspension wear (heavy cars, lots of torque) and insurance (at least Tesla rates are insane).

ls15 4y ago

I can buy 10 used but running ICE cars for the price of an EV and could probably buy a couple of years worth of gas for the money that I saved, even at current prices. We need some actually cheap EVs, so probably models that are not so full of electronics like the current ones. Just some basic models without self-driving hocus pocus and futuristic bling. I also would never buy a car that keeps up a constant network connection to its manufacturer, so that's a requirement I'd be looking for as well.

Underphil 4y ago
You and me both, but I think we're the minority. I want bell-and-whistle free ICE cars when I buy but those are becoming harder and harder to obtain.
- ls15 4y ago
  I'd be fine with a bell-and-whistle-free EV as well. I think there are just none on the market, except a couple of Chinese models that you cannot try before you buy from a Western country.
- vincnetas 4y ago
  Get VW eUP. It's discontinued but you could find year old ones. So almost new. Perfect city car.
gambiting 4y ago
>>We need some actually cheap EVs, so probably models that are not so full of electronics like the current ones. Just some basic models without self-driving hocus pocus and futuristic bling. Those exist, just buy yourself an e-Up/Citigo EV/Mii Electric, it's very cheap, it's very basic, has 160 miles range, it even comes with a normal analogue cluster. Or another cheap choice is an MG ZS EV or EV5 - both fantastic cars, both pretty basic without a whole lot of tech.
- ls15 4y ago
  More affordable than Tesla, but still 10x of the cheap used ICEV that they are competing with. But basic? https://www.just-auto.com/analysis/interior-design-and-technology-seat-mii/ https://www.just-auto.com/analysis/interior-design-and-techn... > The Mii doesn’t offer a built-in touchscreen – not even as an option. Instead, it comes fitted with a smartphone dock located on top of the dash. While it may appear low-tech compared to its rivals, it does the job by allowing the driver to link their phone to the car via two apps: Mii Drive and SEAT Connect. The latter provides remote access and management of the vehicle, so drivers can review driving data, parking position, the vehicle’s status, including doors and lights, manage the charging process via the e-Manager and the ability to control air-conditioning remotely from the app. How to repair this at home if it breaks? Can I make sure that my car does not send any data to the manufacturer?

moandcompany 4y ago

For EV drivers mostly relying on public, "fast" charging, their energy costs are getting extremely close to, and can exceed, the fuel costs of ICE drivers. The main way for the energy costs to be cheaper for EV drivers relies on charging at home or at work where it may be subsidized/free. Using Anecdata from the United States The energy or fuel cost of driving an EV versus an ICE car varies primarily based on the following factors: - Where and When the EV is being charged (e.g. at Home versus at a Public Charging Station) - Cost of Electricity in the Region - Cost of Gasoline in the Region Let's use the state of California for an example and calculate the general fuel/energy cost per mile driven. Where and When: Some residential power customers are on time-of-use billing plans which typically charge premium rates during peak hours (daytime-to-early evening, and substantially cheaper rates during off-peak hours. Pricing can also go up by usage tiers. Some EV drivers are able to charge exclusively at home, and/or have subsidized charging at work. It's almost always more economical for the EV driver to charge at home/work, however home/office chargers will typically be limited to not-"fast" charging speeds (L1 or L2 charging). The average residential electricity rate in California is ~$0.30/kWh. Many Public EV charging stations offer "fast" (L3) charging speeds and are convenient or necessary to use for some EV drivers. Many California public EV charging stations also now have variable pricing based on time of day and their location. The rates can vary from ~$0.30-$0.50+/kWh at EVgo stations or Tesla Superchargers, as examples. Typical EV efficiencies I've seen are around 3.5-4.0 miles driven per kWh consumed. Assuming the upper end of 4.0 mi/kWh, the energy cost per mile driven is around $0.08/mi at the low end, and $0.13+/mi at the upper end with the above energy prices. If we assume an ICE or hybrid vehicle with average fuel economy of 35mi/gallon, and gasoline costs typically range from $4.50-$5.50/gallon, the fuel cost per mile driven is around $0.13/mi at the low end and $0.16+/mi at the higher end. For fun, if we took a typical Toyota Prius from the last 10+ years, with average fuel economy of 50mi/gallon, the fuel cost per mile driven is around $0.09/mi at the low end and $0.11+/mi at the higher end. The prices for Public EV charging fluctuate, as do the prices for gasoline. Generally, if someone is driving an EV and primarily relying on public "fast" charging, their energy cost per mile driven is really not that different from the ICE car examples, and higher than the average Prius driver. (I have an EV and ICE vehicles)

dmitriid 4y ago

friendzis 4y ago

You cannot give one figure here. The only comparable metric is cost per km or equivalent consumption (which is basically the same thing in different units), which is function on 4 variables: ICE/BEV consumption and electricity/fuel price. Fuel cost equivalent BEV consumption (expressed in fuel per distance, e.g. l/100km) is equal to [C_e * P_e] / P_f = C_e * [P_e / P_f]; where C_e = BEV electricity consumption; P_e = Price of electricity; P_f = Price of fuel. With C_e = 20 kWh/100km; you need [P_e / P_f] ~= 0,35 to break even. With fuel prices in the [1.7 -- 1.9] range you need electricity prices in [0.59 -- 0.67] range. Sibling comments list UK prices to be P_e = 0.65; P_f = 1.9; yielding equivalent consumption is 6.8 l/100km. (34.5 mpg according to google) In my country prices are roughly P_e = 0.59; P_f = [1.65 -- 1.75] giving equivalent consumption of roughly [7.15 -- 6.75]. BEV consumption is a bitch for comparison. Your trip computer displays battery-to-controller consumption, which is what you pay at public charger, but when charging at home you pay for grid consumption which includes charging losses.

ridiculous_fish 4y ago

Here in San Jose, CA, I have one of the most efficient EVs on the market (4 miles per kWH) and my off-peak charging rate is 25c/kWH ($0.25) which is high relative to other states. That's 6.25 cents per mile. For comparison a 30 MPG car at $5/gallon is 16.7 cents per mile. So your answer in my situation is 2.7x. One can reasonably quibble about other costs but what surprised me is that it's within an order of magnitude.

saagarjha 4y ago
If you have a Leaf, it's not too hard to push it past 4.5 mi/kWh ;) We're on the same plan as you are, and last week we found that charging it at the office (which used to be significantly more expensive than at home) is now 2x cheaper that it is from our garage, so that's where we're going to all our charging from now on. Electricity prices for off-peak usage going from 5¢/kWh to 25¢/kWh at home really hurts. I get free charging at work, but alas I bike so the car gets charged at the other office…
sideshowb 4y ago
The most efficient ice cars get 60mpg so comparing like with like it's even closer!

fyvhbhn 4y ago

External costs included?