4 ms·

This study uses one behavior 'guilt' to correlate to a sense of duty to others, as it appears to be the differentiator between guilt and shame - and to that end

This study uses one behavior 'guilt' to correlate to a sense of duty to others, as it appears to be the differentiator between guilt and shame - and to that end, I accept and agree. However, I believe there is a misconception with the shared definition of guilt in some cultures - one that followed me in the circles of SV I knew, playfully called "Catholic Guilt." I've come to learn what the true driver of 'the guilt' is, and it has helped me in my leadership in profound ways. The heart of the misconception from others is that the ultimate perfection of 'guilt' is martyrdom. In the SV circles I ran I exhibited such through the seeking of reducing oneself to elevate others. And so without the keel in knowing the origins of one's beliefs, one can easily adorn that alternative definition as truth, as I did. -- Forewarning: this gets religious, but it is only to help those who have experienced the same things I have. There is no 'best religion' or teaching insulated below, for I, too, am still a fool. This is just one humble person's perspective -- To those who feel that an ultimate sacrifice is martyrdom, I would direct you to read the Passion from the Gospel of John. In the time of Christ's death, only one apostle remained with Christ at the foot of the cross - the apostle John. To those who know the story, John is the disciple to whom Jesus references to Mary when saying, 'woman behold your son.' What becomes interesting about John, in addition to the sole apostle in attendance at the crucifixion, is that he did not suffer martyrdom as all other apostles did. So perhaps interpreting guilt as a symptom of not honoring the ultimate sacrifice, is the correct orientation. Meaning that Honor, if allowed to be defined as duty over self, is the desired 'behavior,' sought in this study and to be lived in all aspects of life as a 'Christian.' And to reduce one's guilt through the pursuit of Honor, rather than desensitization and liberation of 'the guilt,' is what one needs to plainly emphasize. In my experience, it sheds the air of 'Catholic Guilt' over those misunderstood actions in a fortifying way.

schubart 4y ago
What does "SV" stand for?
- GameOfFrowns 4y ago
  "Silicon Valley" most likely.
GuB-42 4y ago
I think it is more simple than that, and would be more in line with the legal definition of guilt. From Wikipedia "In criminal law, guilt is the state of being responsible for the commission of an offense", it implies a sense of responsibility. In law, it is usually followed by a sentence, which is a concrete action you have to take. After you have served your sentence, your name is clear and you are no longer considered a criminal. So that's it: guilt means you feel responsible for something wrong, and that through you actions, you have to right that wrong. You Christian story doesn't sound like guilt to me, unless you are talking about survivor guilt, which is a weird way to frame it since it is a condition we generally try to avoid (it is also called "survivor disorder"). I would rather frame it as "I am the last man standing, I have to take over what the others died for", which is a strong sense of duty but I wouldn't call it guilt because no crime is committed.
- HenriTEL 4y ago
  Your definition seems to restrict to "something you did wrong" but to me the term refers more generally to "something that is wrong". You can feel guilty of not acting in a given situation even if you're not causing it in first instance, just because you know you could change that situation.
- TremendousJudge 4y ago
  >After you have served your sentence, your name is clear and you are no longer considered a criminal. I don't think this is true. In reality it's more like "After you have served your sentence, you are an ex-convict and will face discrimination for the rest of your life. Also moving forward you will get examined extra close by law enforcement".
- anonymouse008 4y ago
  This is interesting. There is a correlate to legal realm called 'Confession' and 'Penance' - the former a sacrament (a judgement) and the latter the atonement (a sentence) for the sin, in the religious context introduced - which I believe does play a role. The context I tried to speak to is for those who have these stories engrained as world view shaping, which begets how one even goes about finding the proper judgment and atonement.
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
I really dislike your use of the word 'profound' here. Leadership is not some higher calling, nor is there anything particularly profound about learning to do it well.
- mmmpop 4y ago
  > Leadership is not some higher calling, nor is there anything particularly profound about learning to do it well. Incredible statement. Ever once heard of a military?? Entire sovereign nations are founded by these sort of people for whom you clearly have no respect, but that probably tells us about how useful you are to other people.
  - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
    one wonders if anonymouse008 was referring to people in businesses or not, and if so, it begs the question of whether or not your response is a clear escalation that has little to do with the initial conversation. One then wonders if Christopher Columbus had a higher calling with his plans on slavery, or if the leaders that enabled bringing so many african slaves to America should themselves be thought as having a higher calling. Or is this just nationalism rearing it's ugly head?
- anonymouse008 4y ago
  I mulled this over a bit and still feel profound is the right word, though perhaps using leadership as the 'act' which was aided was in fact a poor word choice - 'stewardship' is better, and more accurate for the comment I intended to make. Some stewardship is leadership, some servantship / follwership. Thanks for pointing that out.
flamebreath447 4y ago
Kudos for including your personal beliefs and it’s impact on your view of guilt despite religion being widely dismissed on the internet. I believe that guilt is the result of leadership in the workplace because business leaders often have to make ethical decisions that almost entirely end up giving one person the short end of the stick. The reason guilt is a good indicator means that the individual has a strong ethos towards favorable outcomes that benefit both company and individuals, which is often a one or the other situation, not both. However I often challenge leaders and myself to not feel ‘guilty’, but rather to constantly seek the best outcome. Being uncomfortable for periods of time to make sure your decisions don’t impact peoples lives, income, families and health is reasonable. In fact I would argue it should be a requirement for management to also be leaders. Sadly most managers are not leaders and it’s widely known that the two are conflated. I don’t know how people attempt to lead without some kind of ethical system. However maybe that explains the lack of leaders across industry and the abundance of subpar leadership.
- anonymouse008 4y ago
  Aye - I did waver in pressing submit. Thank you for building on this idea, too.
bloomingeek 4y ago
-- Forewarning: this gets religious I feel this is what's wrong with the evangelical church today, a member of which I used to be. Guilt is a wonderful way to understand the need for atonement and salvation. Today's evangelical movement is usually only about finding Jesus and then realizing how special you have become. This almost always leads to NO feelings of guilt and then leads to the trap of perfectionism. Wanting to make things right after we have erred is one of the true signs of Christianity. Staying humble by realizing perfectionism is unattainable is another.
makk 4y ago
This kind of introspection and reflection is admirable. It’s hard work to get to the point where one can explain it publicly and mindfully, including the spiritual parts that perhaps most people will not resonate with. Great work and thank you for sharing. You’ve provided us an example of thoughtful leadership right here.
- anonymouse008 4y ago
  We're all in this together. Thank you as well.
mftb 4y ago
If I'm understanding you, I think this could have been stated more succinctly as, "for those who tend towards feelings of guilt, aspiring to martyrdom is self-indulgent. They would be better served aspiring to behave honorably". I think that's largely true, and not very controversial. Aspiring to martyrdom is largely self-indulgent and misguided. Plato had it right in the Republic, the leader is most likely found amongst those reluctant to lead and to the articles point is probably burdened with some level of guilt and feelings of responsibility to others.
- anonymouse008 4y ago
  Your succinct summary is wonderful. The only reason I felt the need to expand is because I don't think many 'teachings' phrase the lessons in that way. The main teachings I've heard are "believe and be saved" or "faith and works" - both of which omit the direct lesson you put in one sentence, that does build on an interpretation of scriptures. This omission leaves people like me to self-select, without realizing, a 'local maxima' that martyrdom is all there is. Believing that martyrdom is pure soothes high performance anxiety, in an almost 'perfect medication' way. This 'medication' is some people's first step, to become fully 'honorable.' To me, 'honor' is the higher state that I almost missed out on - and even still I recognize my current view of 'honor' as the global maxima may still be surpassed by a divinely nobler aim.
  - mftb 4y ago
    Ah very good, I did not want to misrepresent your idea, but eventually I felt I had come to understand and generally agree with it.

schubart 4y ago

What does "SV" stand for?

GameOfFrowns 4y ago
"Silicon Valley" most likely.

GuB-42 4y ago

I think it is more simple than that, and would be more in line with the legal definition of guilt. From Wikipedia "In criminal law, guilt is the state of being responsible for the commission of an offense", it implies a sense of responsibility. In law, it is usually followed by a sentence, which is a concrete action you have to take. After you have served your sentence, your name is clear and you are no longer considered a criminal. So that's it: guilt means you feel responsible for something wrong, and that through you actions, you have to right that wrong. You Christian story doesn't sound like guilt to me, unless you are talking about survivor guilt, which is a weird way to frame it since it is a condition we generally try to avoid (it is also called "survivor disorder"). I would rather frame it as "I am the last man standing, I have to take over what the others died for", which is a strong sense of duty but I wouldn't call it guilt because no crime is committed.

HenriTEL 4y ago
Your definition seems to restrict to "something you did wrong" but to me the term refers more generally to "something that is wrong". You can feel guilty of not acting in a given situation even if you're not causing it in first instance, just because you know you could change that situation.
TremendousJudge 4y ago
>After you have served your sentence, your name is clear and you are no longer considered a criminal. I don't think this is true. In reality it's more like "After you have served your sentence, you are an ex-convict and will face discrimination for the rest of your life. Also moving forward you will get examined extra close by law enforcement".
anonymouse008 4y ago
This is interesting. There is a correlate to legal realm called 'Confession' and 'Penance' - the former a sacrament (a judgement) and the latter the atonement (a sentence) for the sin, in the religious context introduced - which I believe does play a role. The context I tried to speak to is for those who have these stories engrained as world view shaping, which begets how one even goes about finding the proper judgment and atonement.

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

I really dislike your use of the word 'profound' here. Leadership is not some higher calling, nor is there anything particularly profound about learning to do it well.

mmmpop 4y ago
> Leadership is not some higher calling, nor is there anything particularly profound about learning to do it well. Incredible statement. Ever once heard of a military?? Entire sovereign nations are founded by these sort of people for whom you clearly have no respect, but that probably tells us about how useful you are to other people.
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
  one wonders if anonymouse008 was referring to people in businesses or not, and if so, it begs the question of whether or not your response is a clear escalation that has little to do with the initial conversation. One then wonders if Christopher Columbus had a higher calling with his plans on slavery, or if the leaders that enabled bringing so many african slaves to America should themselves be thought as having a higher calling. Or is this just nationalism rearing it's ugly head?
anonymouse008 4y ago
I mulled this over a bit and still feel profound is the right word, though perhaps using leadership as the 'act' which was aided was in fact a poor word choice - 'stewardship' is better, and more accurate for the comment I intended to make. Some stewardship is leadership, some servantship / follwership. Thanks for pointing that out.

flamebreath447 4y ago

Kudos for including your personal beliefs and it’s impact on your view of guilt despite religion being widely dismissed on the internet. I believe that guilt is the result of leadership in the workplace because business leaders often have to make ethical decisions that almost entirely end up giving one person the short end of the stick. The reason guilt is a good indicator means that the individual has a strong ethos towards favorable outcomes that benefit both company and individuals, which is often a one or the other situation, not both. However I often challenge leaders and myself to not feel ‘guilty’, but rather to constantly seek the best outcome. Being uncomfortable for periods of time to make sure your decisions don’t impact peoples lives, income, families and health is reasonable. In fact I would argue it should be a requirement for management to also be leaders. Sadly most managers are not leaders and it’s widely known that the two are conflated. I don’t know how people attempt to lead without some kind of ethical system. However maybe that explains the lack of leaders across industry and the abundance of subpar leadership.

anonymouse008 4y ago
Aye - I did waver in pressing submit. Thank you for building on this idea, too.

bloomingeek 4y ago

-- Forewarning: this gets religious I feel this is what's wrong with the evangelical church today, a member of which I used to be. Guilt is a wonderful way to understand the need for atonement and salvation. Today's evangelical movement is usually only about finding Jesus and then realizing how special you have become. This almost always leads to NO feelings of guilt and then leads to the trap of perfectionism. Wanting to make things right after we have erred is one of the true signs of Christianity. Staying humble by realizing perfectionism is unattainable is another.

makk 4y ago

This kind of introspection and reflection is admirable. It’s hard work to get to the point where one can explain it publicly and mindfully, including the spiritual parts that perhaps most people will not resonate with. Great work and thank you for sharing. You’ve provided us an example of thoughtful leadership right here.

anonymouse008 4y ago
We're all in this together. Thank you as well.

mftb 4y ago

If I'm understanding you, I think this could have been stated more succinctly as, "for those who tend towards feelings of guilt, aspiring to martyrdom is self-indulgent. They would be better served aspiring to behave honorably". I think that's largely true, and not very controversial. Aspiring to martyrdom is largely self-indulgent and misguided. Plato had it right in the Republic, the leader is most likely found amongst those reluctant to lead and to the articles point is probably burdened with some level of guilt and feelings of responsibility to others.

anonymouse008 4y ago
Your succinct summary is wonderful. The only reason I felt the need to expand is because I don't think many 'teachings' phrase the lessons in that way. The main teachings I've heard are "believe and be saved" or "faith and works" - both of which omit the direct lesson you put in one sentence, that does build on an interpretation of scriptures. This omission leaves people like me to self-select, without realizing, a 'local maxima' that martyrdom is all there is. Believing that martyrdom is pure soothes high performance anxiety, in an almost 'perfect medication' way. This 'medication' is some people's first step, to become fully 'honorable.' To me, 'honor' is the higher state that I almost missed out on - and even still I recognize my current view of 'honor' as the global maxima may still be surpassed by a divinely nobler aim.
- mftb 4y ago
  Ah very good, I did not want to misrepresent your idea, but eventually I felt I had come to understand and generally agree with it.