4 ms·

There's no good excuse for the lack of women bricklayers, plumbers, mechanics, and loggers, but no one's worried about that.

nathanaldensr 4y ago
Right. Who would've thought that different people have different preferences? Why this insane push to try and treat all people as fungible economic units? (I already know the answer)
- olliej 4y ago
  ..because women are specifically paid less for the same job? equivalently qualified women applicants are more likely to be skipped, and when they do get offered they are given less favorable terms. No one is _forcing_ women to enter tech, the issue is that if a woman does want to have a tech job it is harder for them to enter the industry, and they get lower compensation for the same job. This has been found across every single study of the industry. To believe that there isn't a significant problem with sexism and gender oriented harassment in tech is delusional at best.
  - trafficante 4y ago
    > This has been found across every single study of the industry. Would be highly interested in a link to one of these. Specifically one that directly tackles the “less pay for the same job with the same hours” issue.
    - olliej 4y ago
  - _-david-_ 4y ago
    >because women are specifically paid less for the same job? Not true when looking at education level, continuous years of job experience, hours worked, etc. When you take those into consideration women make comparable income.
    - Ekaros 4y ago
      Only difference between same work I have heard is that men push harder in negotiations. But I think that explains rather small difference. Otherwise the compensation is pretty much the same. And likely desirability of minorities is used as leverage too, but without asking.
  - xupybd 4y ago
    > .because women are specifically paid less for the same job? That seems to be changing. https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220415-why-young-women-earn-more-than-men-in-some-us-cities https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220415-why-young-wome... >To believe that there isn't a significant problem with sexism and gender oriented harassment in tech is delusional at best. I don't think anyone is arguing that... I think the point is there are more significant factors such as gender based preferences.
  - AnnoyedComment 4y ago
  - randomdata 4y ago
    > and they get lower compensation for the same job. Okay, so let's assume that instead of $250,000 per year that a male makes they are offered $200,000 per year for being female. In response they choose a $50,000 per year job in healthcare instead?
    - Traubenfuchs 4y ago
      > In response they choose a $50,000 per year job in healthcare instead? …where they‘d also get paid less than men, if you want to continue the paygap meme.
      - randomdata 4y ago
        Which suggests that pay disparity isn't the source of their decision making. After all, if they are simply trying to spite tech for not paying them as much as men doing the same job then they would do the same in healthcare where you indicate men are also paid more.
olliej 4y ago
They are, it's just that the place where you can look at objective and comparable data (graduation vs job offers, salaries, terms for initial offers, etc) at scale is business, tech, etc and other similar industries. For press coverage it's also a matter of what the big industries of the era are. Currently it's tech, in the 80s it was things like the mining companies - Apple is also one of the single largest companies in the world so when its CEO says something that's always going to get press coverage.
kiwih 4y ago
Tired argument, redirecting the topic. It's possible for more than one thing to be inequal at once. Also, the National Association for Women in Construction [0] and the women in auto care organization [1] would disagree on your first points. Lumberjacks slightly different, but even there I've found axewomen which is an organization/family promoting female lumberjacks (lumberjills as they call them) as a career [2]. [0] https://www.nawic.org/ https://www.nawic.org/ [1] https://www.autocare.org/networking-and-development/communities/women-in-auto-care https://www.autocare.org/networking-and-development/communit... [2] http://axewomen.com/index.html http://axewomen.com/index.html
mixmastamyk 4y ago
Buddy of mine just got his RN, was one guy in a class of 30.
- ksaj 4y ago
  And the same thing occurs in teachers college.
isitmadeofglass 4y ago
Apple is not a bricklaying or plumbing company…
dragonwriter 4y ago
> There’s no good excuse for the lack of women bricklayers, plumbers, mechanics, and loggers, but no one’s worried about that. Yes, actually, people are worried about that even if people whose attention is more focused on tech may not see it as much: https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/agenda/inspire-me/percentage-of-women-in-skilled-trades-shows-little-change-in-a-decade-18-03-2022/ https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/agenda/inspire-me/percent... https://www.theguardian.com/careers/careers-blog/2015/may/19/where-are-all-the-women-why-99-of-construction-site-workers-are-male https://www.theguardian.com/careers/careers-blog/2015/may/19... Etc.
Ekaros 4y ago
Does the USA army have 50-50 split in combat roles? Shouldn't they aim for that by forcing enough females there so that eventually those can build career and enter officer ranks with 50-50 split too?

nathanaldensr 4y ago

Right. Who would've thought that different people have different preferences? Why this insane push to try and treat all people as fungible economic units? (I already know the answer)

olliej 4y ago
..because women are specifically paid less for the same job? equivalently qualified women applicants are more likely to be skipped, and when they do get offered they are given less favorable terms. No one is _forcing_ women to enter tech, the issue is that if a woman does want to have a tech job it is harder for them to enter the industry, and they get lower compensation for the same job. This has been found across every single study of the industry. To believe that there isn't a significant problem with sexism and gender oriented harassment in tech is delusional at best.
- trafficante 4y ago
  > This has been found across every single study of the industry. Would be highly interested in a link to one of these. Specifically one that directly tackles the “less pay for the same job with the same hours” issue.
  - olliej 4y ago
- _-david-_ 4y ago
  >because women are specifically paid less for the same job? Not true when looking at education level, continuous years of job experience, hours worked, etc. When you take those into consideration women make comparable income.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Only difference between same work I have heard is that men push harder in negotiations. But I think that explains rather small difference. Otherwise the compensation is pretty much the same. And likely desirability of minorities is used as leverage too, but without asking.
- xupybd 4y ago
  > .because women are specifically paid less for the same job? That seems to be changing. https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220415-why-young-women-earn-more-than-men-in-some-us-cities https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220415-why-young-wome... >To believe that there isn't a significant problem with sexism and gender oriented harassment in tech is delusional at best. I don't think anyone is arguing that... I think the point is there are more significant factors such as gender based preferences.
- AnnoyedComment 4y ago
- randomdata 4y ago
  > and they get lower compensation for the same job. Okay, so let's assume that instead of $250,000 per year that a male makes they are offered $200,000 per year for being female. In response they choose a $50,000 per year job in healthcare instead?
  - Traubenfuchs 4y ago
    > In response they choose a $50,000 per year job in healthcare instead? …where they‘d also get paid less than men, if you want to continue the paygap meme.
    - randomdata 4y ago
      Which suggests that pay disparity isn't the source of their decision making. After all, if they are simply trying to spite tech for not paying them as much as men doing the same job then they would do the same in healthcare where you indicate men are also paid more.

olliej 4y ago

They are, it's just that the place where you can look at objective and comparable data (graduation vs job offers, salaries, terms for initial offers, etc) at scale is business, tech, etc and other similar industries. For press coverage it's also a matter of what the big industries of the era are. Currently it's tech, in the 80s it was things like the mining companies - Apple is also one of the single largest companies in the world so when its CEO says something that's always going to get press coverage.

kiwih 4y ago

Tired argument, redirecting the topic. It's possible for more than one thing to be inequal at once. Also, the National Association for Women in Construction [0] and the women in auto care organization [1] would disagree on your first points. Lumberjacks slightly different, but even there I've found axewomen which is an organization/family promoting female lumberjacks (lumberjills as they call them) as a career [2]. [0] https://www.nawic.org/ https://www.nawic.org/ [1] https://www.autocare.org/networking-and-development/communities/women-in-auto-care https://www.autocare.org/networking-and-development/communit... [2] http://axewomen.com/index.html http://axewomen.com/index.html

mixmastamyk 4y ago

Buddy of mine just got his RN, was one guy in a class of 30.

ksaj 4y ago
And the same thing occurs in teachers college.

isitmadeofglass 4y ago

Apple is not a bricklaying or plumbing company…

dragonwriter 4y ago

> There’s no good excuse for the lack of women bricklayers, plumbers, mechanics, and loggers, but no one’s worried about that. Yes, actually, people are worried about that even if people whose attention is more focused on tech may not see it as much: https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/agenda/inspire-me/percentage-of-women-in-skilled-trades-shows-little-change-in-a-decade-18-03-2022/ https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/agenda/inspire-me/percent... https://www.theguardian.com/careers/careers-blog/2015/may/19/where-are-all-the-women-why-99-of-construction-site-workers-are-male https://www.theguardian.com/careers/careers-blog/2015/may/19... Etc.

Ekaros 4y ago

Does the USA army have 50-50 split in combat roles? Shouldn't they aim for that by forcing enough females there so that eventually those can build career and enter officer ranks with 50-50 split too?