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You’re wrong and spreading confusion. Every job I’ve had has had a contract, and it’s usually “we pay what we want, we terminate you when we want, and you quit

You’re wrong and spreading confusion. Every job I’ve had has had a contract, and it’s usually “we pay what we want, we terminate you when we want, and you quit when you want.”

ajross 4y ago
No, no, no. That's not a "contract", it's just a document. Go google "seven elements of a contract" (the basic definition in common law) and note that at-will employment simply lacks several (the big one being "certainty"). In particular a "contract" that says "you can do whatever" is clearly not a contract under common law. Now, sure, it's true that some elements of an employment agreement may constitute contracts and may have been enforced by courts. Back wages are a big one, obviously. Likewise promised benefits being denied, etc... But at-will compensation and termination just don't qualify. They don't. The Amazon workers can't sue for their mistake raises under contract law becuase those raises don't constitute contracts. Period.
- benj111 4y ago
  Re Certainty. I'm pretty sure if you do work, as contractually agreed, the contract requires you be paid for that work. It's just a contract agreeing rates for work done, not a contract guaranteeing work will be done.
  - ajross 4y ago
    > I'm pretty sure if you do work, as contractually agreed, the contract requires you be paid for that work. Yes it does (and I even said so in the comment you replied to), but compensation plans, raises, offer letters, etc... are not payment for work done, and are not contracts for work for the reason stated. These Amazon folks aren't getting a penny, and it absolutely stuns me that people want to argue otherwise.
    - pyuser583 4y ago
      They get paid for the previous work they have done (two weeks, half month, one month, depending on pay period). That’s theirs. But going forward, they don’t have any right to any level of pay above minimum wage. I’ve personally dealt with this. I had an employer run out of money and be acquired by a new company. The new company owes paychecks for last pay period, but wants to pay everyone lower salaries. Going forward the new company could pay whatever (above minimum wage). But they owned all the debts of the previous company including that last months wage. We only had at will hiring agreements, but that didnt matter.
    - benj111 4y ago
      I was replying to >note that at-will employment simply lacks several (the big one being "certainty"). In particular a "contract" that says "you can do whatever" is clearly not a contract under common law. Which was in reply to a comment about every job having a contract. Further your other examples could be contractually enforced. If you accepted an employment contract based on the compensation plan, that forms part of the contract. Raises are updates to the contract, unless you're saying it's potentially ok to claw back 40 years of pay raises when some one retires. Offer letters are probably more questionable but if there's a specific start date and pay has already been discussed, it seems to me that that would form a contract. The key thing in this particular situation seems to be that there was an error, and the error was rectified quickly.
- pyuser583 4y ago
  Contracts include unbounded variables all the time. Banks offer accounts with “whatever we feel like” interest rates. Bonds can have “whatever we feel like” interest rates. Stocks can have “whatever we feel like” dividends. Short term rentals have “whatever we feel like” rental prices. In practice, the payer offers a very short term guarantee: “for the next pay period, you will get $50 an hour”, but after that pay period they change it. There are contracts behind all these things. One party offers something on a continuous basis: labor, money, etc. The other party walks away when they don’t like what they’re getting.

You’re wrong and spreading confusion. Every job I’ve had has had a contract, and it’s usually “we pay what we want, we terminate you when we want, and you quit when you want.”

ajross 4y ago

No, no, no. That's not a "contract", it's just a document. Go google "seven elements of a contract" (the basic definition in common law) and note that at-will employment simply lacks several (the big one being "certainty"). In particular a "contract" that says "you can do whatever" is clearly not a contract under common law. Now, sure, it's true that some elements of an employment agreement may constitute contracts and may have been enforced by courts. Back wages are a big one, obviously. Likewise promised benefits being denied, etc... But at-will compensation and termination just don't qualify. They don't. The Amazon workers can't sue for their mistake raises under contract law becuase those raises don't constitute contracts. Period.

benj111 4y ago
Re Certainty. I'm pretty sure if you do work, as contractually agreed, the contract requires you be paid for that work. It's just a contract agreeing rates for work done, not a contract guaranteeing work will be done.
- ajross 4y ago
  > I'm pretty sure if you do work, as contractually agreed, the contract requires you be paid for that work. Yes it does (and I even said so in the comment you replied to), but compensation plans, raises, offer letters, etc... are not payment for work done, and are not contracts for work for the reason stated. These Amazon folks aren't getting a penny, and it absolutely stuns me that people want to argue otherwise.
  - pyuser583 4y ago
    They get paid for the previous work they have done (two weeks, half month, one month, depending on pay period). That’s theirs. But going forward, they don’t have any right to any level of pay above minimum wage. I’ve personally dealt with this. I had an employer run out of money and be acquired by a new company. The new company owes paychecks for last pay period, but wants to pay everyone lower salaries. Going forward the new company could pay whatever (above minimum wage). But they owned all the debts of the previous company including that last months wage. We only had at will hiring agreements, but that didnt matter.
  - benj111 4y ago
    I was replying to >note that at-will employment simply lacks several (the big one being "certainty"). In particular a "contract" that says "you can do whatever" is clearly not a contract under common law. Which was in reply to a comment about every job having a contract. Further your other examples could be contractually enforced. If you accepted an employment contract based on the compensation plan, that forms part of the contract. Raises are updates to the contract, unless you're saying it's potentially ok to claw back 40 years of pay raises when some one retires. Offer letters are probably more questionable but if there's a specific start date and pay has already been discussed, it seems to me that that would form a contract. The key thing in this particular situation seems to be that there was an error, and the error was rectified quickly.
pyuser583 4y ago
Contracts include unbounded variables all the time. Banks offer accounts with “whatever we feel like” interest rates. Bonds can have “whatever we feel like” interest rates. Stocks can have “whatever we feel like” dividends. Short term rentals have “whatever we feel like” rental prices. In practice, the payer offers a very short term guarantee: “for the next pay period, you will get $50 an hour”, but after that pay period they change it. There are contracts behind all these things. One party offers something on a continuous basis: labor, money, etc. The other party walks away when they don’t like what they’re getting.