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>all will be good when we release Well I've literally been in the position where this was true to close a deal so we could stay in business. What would be the

>all will be good when we release Well I've literally been in the position where this was true to close a deal so we could stay in business. What would be the best option in your opinion? Risk a critical person leaving right then and loosing the customer and then losing everyone job? Or lying and telling them we are all ok just keep on doing your job and don't listen to rumors? You are espousing false virtue/armchair quarterback. Real life is complex and lying can save many people jobs.

celdon25 4y ago
In real life, some people are human lie detectors, or at least better at detecting lies than you are a liar. But I can acknowledge there are cases where transparency is simply not an option.
warent 4y ago
"Things are tough right now, but once we close this deal then we'll be in a much more comfortable position. Your role on this is critical to our success." Is this not a reasonable way of approaching it? It seems to be simultaneously honest and empowering. What lie is necessary? EDIT: slight revision
- random314 4y ago
  Compulsive liars cannot change their habits.
  - sahila 4y ago
    And gasp you may have to reward your worker because they truly are that valuable instead of reaping all the benefit for the cto.
    - citizenpaul 4y ago
      Thats mostly a CEO trait. Remember CTO,CFO,COO,CIO, ect are all just jobs. You ultimately report to the CEO, whom ultimately reports to the investors,stakeholders, capital partners, b2b relationships and so on. For the record I gave 100% of bonuses I had awarded to my staff and 0% to myself the entire tenure.
      - random314 4y ago
        Who awards bonuses to themselves?!
- citizenpaul 4y ago
  I wasn't trying to write a business book but what you wrote is fine usually for the senior level employees that get how business works and probably took the job with the understanding of the weight of their position. However you will also have fickle entry/low/mid level employees that don't have the maturity to accept the realities of the business world.
  - random314 4y ago
    > However you will also have fickle entry/low/mid level employees You need to read that sentence again. Your comments are very revealing about you and not about CTO level work as you are imagining.
    - citizenpaul 4y ago
      My comments are very revealing about the reality of the work world at mediocre aka most companies. If you get a big enough group of people there are going to be some people with machiavellian tendencies or at least some that read bad advice on the internet about how to get ahead at work and try to apply it with clumsy gusto. You will look like a real fool to your boss the CEO if you are giving information to these type of people and they try to use it for their benefit. I may be painting too dark a picture due to the focus the comments have on a single sentence. Overall I had good relationships with the vast majority of people that worked for me. I know this because I still have contact with most of them even though we have almost no chance of ever working together again. You are deluding yourself if you think there are no bad apples out there or that people having problems in their personal life may try to pull manipulation at work to get ahead or however they see may solve their problems.
      - random314 4y ago
        > You are deluding yourself if you think there are no bad apples out ther Please don't put words into my mouth.
kelnos 4y ago
> You are espousing false virtue/armchair quarterback. Real life is complex and lying can save many people jobs. I'd rather my job disappear than still be there because someone with employment power over me lied to me. This isn't false virtue or armchair anything. No exceptions, or I don't work with you ever again. It's not hard. Learn to communicate effectively, and learn to treat your employees with the respect they deserve.
- skipidarink 4y ago
  Consider that you're advertising yourself as the type of person who absolutely must be lied to in order to maintain morale. I've been close to situations where the ICs did their absolute best and it was a total waste because of politics outside of their control. Do you tell them that so-and-so highly-respected person was shit-talking them because of an unrelated agenda and invalidated all of their work? Or do you tell them good job (it was a good job) and not get into it?
  - warent 4y ago
    Frankly if this actually happened, I would do neither. Just tell my IC "I'm not sure why your work was invalidated. Let me look into it for you." and then address this as a grievous issue on behalf of my IC with the leadership. If leadership doesn't fix the problem then just resign in protest. EDIT: It's now occurring to me that there's probably different schools of thought here. Yes, I've resigned in protest on behalf of my workers before. If my team is getting fucked, then I've either failed my team, or my purpose is meaningless. Either way, get me out.
    - skipidarink 4y ago
      > Just tell my IC "I'm not sure why your work was invalidated. Let me look into it for you." And so you take your first step down the path.. "I'm not sure" is a lie here.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
light_hue_1 4y ago
> Well I've literally been in the position where this was true to close a deal so we could stay in business. What would be the best option in your opinion? Risk a critical person leaving right then and loosing the customer and then losing everyone job? Or lying and telling them we are all ok just keep on doing your job and don't listen to rumors? Well I've literally been in this position too. Lying to people is ineffective. It literally leads to the rumors you want to avoid. And even if your lies pay off, people aren't dumb. They realize how close to the edge they were and that you are a liar. Next time it will just be worse! It's much better to be honest. Explain the situation. Explain what it will take. Use it to motivate people and build them up. People love a challenge, they want to feel like they're the hero of a story. You literally took a situation where your employees would have come out stronger and more motivated to work for you, and you turned it into one where they walked away with mistrust. > You are espousing false virtue/armchair quarterback. Real life is complex and lying can save many people jobs. It has nothing to do with virtue! Even if you don't give a damn about being a good human being, this is a terrible way to manage people.

celdon25 4y ago

In real life, some people are human lie detectors, or at least better at detecting lies than you are a liar. But I can acknowledge there are cases where transparency is simply not an option.

warent 4y ago

"Things are tough right now, but once we close this deal then we'll be in a much more comfortable position. Your role on this is critical to our success." Is this not a reasonable way of approaching it? It seems to be simultaneously honest and empowering. What lie is necessary? EDIT: slight revision

random314 4y ago
Compulsive liars cannot change their habits.
- sahila 4y ago
  And gasp you may have to reward your worker because they truly are that valuable instead of reaping all the benefit for the cto.
  - citizenpaul 4y ago
    Thats mostly a CEO trait. Remember CTO,CFO,COO,CIO, ect are all just jobs. You ultimately report to the CEO, whom ultimately reports to the investors,stakeholders, capital partners, b2b relationships and so on. For the record I gave 100% of bonuses I had awarded to my staff and 0% to myself the entire tenure.
    - random314 4y ago
      Who awards bonuses to themselves?!
citizenpaul 4y ago
I wasn't trying to write a business book but what you wrote is fine usually for the senior level employees that get how business works and probably took the job with the understanding of the weight of their position. However you will also have fickle entry/low/mid level employees that don't have the maturity to accept the realities of the business world.
- random314 4y ago
  > However you will also have fickle entry/low/mid level employees You need to read that sentence again. Your comments are very revealing about you and not about CTO level work as you are imagining.
  - citizenpaul 4y ago
    My comments are very revealing about the reality of the work world at mediocre aka most companies. If you get a big enough group of people there are going to be some people with machiavellian tendencies or at least some that read bad advice on the internet about how to get ahead at work and try to apply it with clumsy gusto. You will look like a real fool to your boss the CEO if you are giving information to these type of people and they try to use it for their benefit. I may be painting too dark a picture due to the focus the comments have on a single sentence. Overall I had good relationships with the vast majority of people that worked for me. I know this because I still have contact with most of them even though we have almost no chance of ever working together again. You are deluding yourself if you think there are no bad apples out there or that people having problems in their personal life may try to pull manipulation at work to get ahead or however they see may solve their problems.
    - random314 4y ago
      > You are deluding yourself if you think there are no bad apples out ther Please don't put words into my mouth.

kelnos 4y ago

> You are espousing false virtue/armchair quarterback. Real life is complex and lying can save many people jobs. I'd rather my job disappear than still be there because someone with employment power over me lied to me. This isn't false virtue or armchair anything. No exceptions, or I don't work with you ever again. It's not hard. Learn to communicate effectively, and learn to treat your employees with the respect they deserve.

skipidarink 4y ago
Consider that you're advertising yourself as the type of person who absolutely must be lied to in order to maintain morale. I've been close to situations where the ICs did their absolute best and it was a total waste because of politics outside of their control. Do you tell them that so-and-so highly-respected person was shit-talking them because of an unrelated agenda and invalidated all of their work? Or do you tell them good job (it was a good job) and not get into it?
- warent 4y ago
  Frankly if this actually happened, I would do neither. Just tell my IC "I'm not sure why your work was invalidated. Let me look into it for you." and then address this as a grievous issue on behalf of my IC with the leadership. If leadership doesn't fix the problem then just resign in protest. EDIT: It's now occurring to me that there's probably different schools of thought here. Yes, I've resigned in protest on behalf of my workers before. If my team is getting fucked, then I've either failed my team, or my purpose is meaningless. Either way, get me out.
  - skipidarink 4y ago
    > Just tell my IC "I'm not sure why your work was invalidated. Let me look into it for you." And so you take your first step down the path.. "I'm not sure" is a lie here.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

light_hue_1 4y ago

> Well I've literally been in the position where this was true to close a deal so we could stay in business. What would be the best option in your opinion? Risk a critical person leaving right then and loosing the customer and then losing everyone job? Or lying and telling them we are all ok just keep on doing your job and don't listen to rumors? Well I've literally been in this position too. Lying to people is ineffective. It literally leads to the rumors you want to avoid. And even if your lies pay off, people aren't dumb. They realize how close to the edge they were and that you are a liar. Next time it will just be worse! It's much better to be honest. Explain the situation. Explain what it will take. Use it to motivate people and build them up. People love a challenge, they want to feel like they're the hero of a story. You literally took a situation where your employees would have come out stronger and more motivated to work for you, and you turned it into one where they walked away with mistrust. > You are espousing false virtue/armchair quarterback. Real life is complex and lying can save many people jobs. It has nothing to do with virtue! Even if you don't give a damn about being a good human being, this is a terrible way to manage people.