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Should a conductor know how to play instruments? Of course not, but it's imperative they know physical realities of playing each one. That's a key component of

Should a conductor know how to play instruments? Of course not, but it's imperative they know physical realities of playing each one. That's a key component of understanding where the orchestra is at and where you can take it. Is that technical? I'd argue it is.

kragen 4y ago
> Should a conductor know how to play instruments? Of course not, but I was very surprised to read that someone would think this, so I thought I'd check whether it's true. Here are some recentish famous conductors selected from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conducting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conducting; though I didn't make an effort to select very randomly, this ought to include most of the most famous conductors: - Herbert von Karajan: child prodigy at the piano, continued studying piano into his 20s, no notes on whether he continued playing in later life or took up more instruments - Marin Alsop: studied violin at Juillard, played violin in the New York Philharmonic and the New York City Ballet, no word on whether she still plays today - Simone Young: studied piano at the Sydney Conservatorium, played piano as a répétiteuse at Opera Australia, no word on whether she still plays today - Alondra de la Parra: began studying piano at 7 and the cello at 13, studied piano (and conducting) at the Manhattan School of Music, received BM in piano, no word on whether she still plays today - Seiji Ozawa: began studying piano at 9, studied piano at the Toho Gakuen School of Music under Saito until he broke his fingers and couldn't play anymore, consequently switching to conducting, no word on whether he's taken up other instruments today - Myung-whun Chung: won "joint second-prize in the 1974 International Tchaikovsky Competition" as a pianist, still famous as a pianist today as well as a conductor - Henry Jay Lewis: child prodigy on various instruments starting at 5, famous as a double-bassist as well as a conductor, "first African-American instrumentalist in a major symphony orchestra" as a double-bassist - Charles Dean Dixon: no information about whether he knew how to play any instruments. However, the New York Public Library summary of the Dean Dixon papers https://archives.nypl.org/scm/21001 https://archives.nypl.org/scm/21001 says, "Dixon began studying violin at the age of 1 or 2, and played most of the instruments that comprise an orchestra." - James DePreist: played percussion in a jazz quintet, was sponsored by the State Department at age 36 to tour "the Near and the Far East with DePreist lecturing and performing jazz," when he got his first chance to conduct an orchestra, in Bangkok. Contracted polio on the tour. Published two books of poetry. No word on whether he continued to play instruments for the rest of his life. - Paul Douglas Freeman: no word in Wikipedia on his instrument-playing abilities, but https://www.chicagosinfonietta.org/wp-content/uploads/Paul-Freeman-Bio.pdf https://www.chicagosinfonietta.org/wp-content/uploads/Paul-F... says, 'Music lessons were also a required routine when the Freeman siblings grew old enough to handle them; Freeman started piano lessons at age five, and he soon took up the clarinet as well. He took clarinet lessons at Richmond's Armstrong High School while still in elementary school and took lessons at Virginia State College in Petersburg while in high school. His conducting debut came at age 14 or 15, when his clarinet teacher fell ill and was unable to conduct the Armstrong school band for its scheduled performance at a PTA meeting. Freeman stepped in as a substitute. "Although the ministry was an earlier career interest, a maestro was born that evening," Freeman wrote in a letter quoted in the book Black Conductors. Freeman soon added the cello to his instrumental arsenal, and his teachers started urging him to consider a career in music.' And https://www.thehistorymakers.org/biography/paul-douglas-freeman https://www.thehistorymakers.org/biography/paul-douglas-free... says, 'Freeman attended the Eastman School of Music, where he earned his B.A., M.A. and Ph.D. degrees, with his principal instruments being the clarinet and the cello,' explaining that his conducting career began after that. - Michael DeVard Morgan: began playing piano at age 8, was conducting two orchestras by age 12; performed chamber music on piano in the "Chamber Music Alive" series in Sacramento, California. - Arthur Nikisch, "one of the founders of modern conducting": studied at the Vienna Conservatory, winning prizes for "composition and performance on violin and piano". Worked as a violinist in the Vienna Philharmonic. - Fritz Reiner: studied piano under Bela Bartok, no word on whether he continued playing in later life or took up other instruments. - Arturo Toscanini: studied the cello on a scholarship at the local conservatory, toured South America in the orchestra of an opera company and had his first conducting experience when the players went on strike against the previous conductor; continued playing cello, including in the world premiere of a Verdi opera, until "Toscanini's reputation as an operatic conductor of unusual authority and skill supplanted his cello career". - Wilhelm Furtwängler: no word in the Wikipedia article about his talents as an instrumentalist, but https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/article/wilhelm-furtwangler-the-man-and-myth https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/article/wilhelm-furtwa... says he was "also a very capable pianist", http://patangel.free.fr/furt/bio_en.htm http://patangel.free.fr/furt/bio_en.htm says he started studying piano at 7 and played piano in the Lübeck orchestra and the Vienna Philharmonic (in which case he was also conducting). http://www.scena.org/lsm/sm3-5/sm3-5furtwangler.htm http://www.scena.org/lsm/sm3-5/sm3-5furtwangler.htm says his piano studies began at 4. - Leopold Stokowski: sang in the choir, elected to membership in the Royal College of Organists at age 16, "appointed the organist and choir director of St. James's Church" at age 20, then "began work in New York City as the organist and choir director of St. Bartholomew's Church", and did not begin conducting until age 27. No word on whether he played instruments in later life (presumably he did not have his own pipe organ.) - Otto Klemperer: no word in the Wikipedia article on playing instruments, but https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/literature-and-arts/music-history-composers-and-performers-biographies/otto-klemperer https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/literature-and-arts/musi... and the more-reliable-appearing https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Klemperer-Otto.htm https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Klemperer-Otto.htm say he studied piano at the Hochschule fuer Musik in Frankfurt and in Berlin. http://web.archive.org/web/20090502025309/http://www.klemperer.org/EarlyYears.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20090502025309/http://www.klemper... says, "The teen-aged Klemperer soon established himself as a pianist of note, performing Beethoven's Sonata in D major in a conservatory concert and serving as accompanist to the celebrated baritone Julius Stockhausen," and explains the move to Berlin by explaining that he was following his piano teacher James Kwast, who had moved to the Klindworth-Scharwenka Conservatory and then the Stern Conservatory, and that Mahler recommended him as an "outstanding musician" on the strength of his piano performances as well as his conducting. No word on whether he continued playing piano in later life. - Leonard Bernstein: taught himself piano at age 10, played piano at the New England Conservatory and the Boston Public School Orchestra, accompanist for the Harvard Glee Club, studied piano at the Curtis Institute of Music, played jazz piano at the Village Vanguard, noted as an adult as a pianist, surprised Aaron Copland by playing Copland's Piano Variations at his birthday party, "often conducted piano concertos from the keyboard". So, after looking long and hard, reading through the biographies of 18 different famous conductors, I was unable to find even one great conductor who didn't know how to play instruments. Most of them were in fact very talented instrumentalists; a few were world-famous as instrumentalists. Most of them dedicated many years of their lives to learning to play instruments. The only one I could find that didn't have a paid music career playing instruments, as well as conducting, was Seiji Ozawa, and that was because his piano career was cut short by a crippling hand injury. (And I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Ozawa played horn or something in his spare time, even if he didn't perform publicly.)
- Keyframe 4y ago
  Maybe I worded wrongly, or you've misread or probably both. Conductor knowing how to play instruments (plural and all of them in the orchestra), and well at that, is not happening. An instrument - yes, as often is the case with music, at least to a certain level. What's more important, which was the point, is to understand realities of playing each one in order to understand what, how, and where to take the orchestra. Not ever playing even a single one would probably render the effort impossible at the highest level.
  - kragen 4y ago
    Apparently in every single case they played at least one instrument at a world-class level, and in at least one case they were said to play "most of the instruments that comprise an orchestra", though presumably not at a world-class level. Hanging out with musicians leads me to believe that probably nearly all these conductors could play most of the instruments in the orchestra at a basic level, because it's totally normal for musicians to play around on instruments they don't specialize in, and there's a lot of skill transfer. Evidently conductors who founded orchestras without having world-class skill in playing at least one instrument did not achieve the level of excellence of the ones in my list above, and the folks who select conductors to conduct existing orchestras evidently consistently select conductors with world-class skill in playing at least one instrument. Perhaps, as you seem to be saying, they are wrong to do so, and a basic level of skill in one along with understanding the realities of playing each one would be sufficient. Conceivably it's an outdated or simply incorrect prejudice, similar to how almost no women were selected as conductors or even orchestra instrumentalists. But that doesn't seem like the way to bet.
    - Keyframe 4y ago
      That does make me think now is it an actual pre-requisite to be a conductor at a high level or just the way things have been. We seem not have much/any counter examples?
      - kragen 4y ago

kragen 4y ago

> Should a conductor know how to play instruments? Of course not, but I was very surprised to read that someone would think this, so I thought I'd check whether it's true. Here are some recentish famous conductors selected from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conducting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conducting; though I didn't make an effort to select very randomly, this ought to include most of the most famous conductors: - Herbert von Karajan: child prodigy at the piano, continued studying piano into his 20s, no notes on whether he continued playing in later life or took up more instruments - Marin Alsop: studied violin at Juillard, played violin in the New York Philharmonic and the New York City Ballet, no word on whether she still plays today - Simone Young: studied piano at the Sydney Conservatorium, played piano as a répétiteuse at Opera Australia, no word on whether she still plays today - Alondra de la Parra: began studying piano at 7 and the cello at 13, studied piano (and conducting) at the Manhattan School of Music, received BM in piano, no word on whether she still plays today - Seiji Ozawa: began studying piano at 9, studied piano at the Toho Gakuen School of Music under Saito until he broke his fingers and couldn't play anymore, consequently switching to conducting, no word on whether he's taken up other instruments today - Myung-whun Chung: won "joint second-prize in the 1974 International Tchaikovsky Competition" as a pianist, still famous as a pianist today as well as a conductor - Henry Jay Lewis: child prodigy on various instruments starting at 5, famous as a double-bassist as well as a conductor, "first African-American instrumentalist in a major symphony orchestra" as a double-bassist - Charles Dean Dixon: no information about whether he knew how to play any instruments. However, the New York Public Library summary of the Dean Dixon papers https://archives.nypl.org/scm/21001 https://archives.nypl.org/scm/21001 says, "Dixon began studying violin at the age of 1 or 2, and played most of the instruments that comprise an orchestra." - James DePreist: played percussion in a jazz quintet, was sponsored by the State Department at age 36 to tour "the Near and the Far East with DePreist lecturing and performing jazz," when he got his first chance to conduct an orchestra, in Bangkok. Contracted polio on the tour. Published two books of poetry. No word on whether he continued to play instruments for the rest of his life. - Paul Douglas Freeman: no word in Wikipedia on his instrument-playing abilities, but https://www.chicagosinfonietta.org/wp-content/uploads/Paul-Freeman-Bio.pdf https://www.chicagosinfonietta.org/wp-content/uploads/Paul-F... says, 'Music lessons were also a required routine when the Freeman siblings grew old enough to handle them; Freeman started piano lessons at age five, and he soon took up the clarinet as well. He took clarinet lessons at Richmond's Armstrong High School while still in elementary school and took lessons at Virginia State College in Petersburg while in high school. His conducting debut came at age 14 or 15, when his clarinet teacher fell ill and was unable to conduct the Armstrong school band for its scheduled performance at a PTA meeting. Freeman stepped in as a substitute. "Although the ministry was an earlier career interest, a maestro was born that evening," Freeman wrote in a letter quoted in the book Black Conductors. Freeman soon added the cello to his instrumental arsenal, and his teachers started urging him to consider a career in music.' And https://www.thehistorymakers.org/biography/paul-douglas-freeman https://www.thehistorymakers.org/biography/paul-douglas-free... says, 'Freeman attended the Eastman School of Music, where he earned his B.A., M.A. and Ph.D. degrees, with his principal instruments being the clarinet and the cello,' explaining that his conducting career began after that. - Michael DeVard Morgan: began playing piano at age 8, was conducting two orchestras by age 12; performed chamber music on piano in the "Chamber Music Alive" series in Sacramento, California. - Arthur Nikisch, "one of the founders of modern conducting": studied at the Vienna Conservatory, winning prizes for "composition and performance on violin and piano". Worked as a violinist in the Vienna Philharmonic. - Fritz Reiner: studied piano under Bela Bartok, no word on whether he continued playing in later life or took up other instruments. - Arturo Toscanini: studied the cello on a scholarship at the local conservatory, toured South America in the orchestra of an opera company and had his first conducting experience when the players went on strike against the previous conductor; continued playing cello, including in the world premiere of a Verdi opera, until "Toscanini's reputation as an operatic conductor of unusual authority and skill supplanted his cello career". - Wilhelm Furtwängler: no word in the Wikipedia article about his talents as an instrumentalist, but https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/article/wilhelm-furtwangler-the-man-and-myth https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/article/wilhelm-furtwa... says he was "also a very capable pianist", http://patangel.free.fr/furt/bio_en.htm http://patangel.free.fr/furt/bio_en.htm says he started studying piano at 7 and played piano in the Lübeck orchestra and the Vienna Philharmonic (in which case he was also conducting). http://www.scena.org/lsm/sm3-5/sm3-5furtwangler.htm http://www.scena.org/lsm/sm3-5/sm3-5furtwangler.htm says his piano studies began at 4. - Leopold Stokowski: sang in the choir, elected to membership in the Royal College of Organists at age 16, "appointed the organist and choir director of St. James's Church" at age 20, then "began work in New York City as the organist and choir director of St. Bartholomew's Church", and did not begin conducting until age 27. No word on whether he played instruments in later life (presumably he did not have his own pipe organ.) - Otto Klemperer: no word in the Wikipedia article on playing instruments, but https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/literature-and-arts/music-history-composers-and-performers-biographies/otto-klemperer https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/literature-and-arts/musi... and the more-reliable-appearing https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Klemperer-Otto.htm https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Klemperer-Otto.htm say he studied piano at the Hochschule fuer Musik in Frankfurt and in Berlin. http://web.archive.org/web/20090502025309/http://www.klemperer.org/EarlyYears.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20090502025309/http://www.klemper... says, "The teen-aged Klemperer soon established himself as a pianist of note, performing Beethoven's Sonata in D major in a conservatory concert and serving as accompanist to the celebrated baritone Julius Stockhausen," and explains the move to Berlin by explaining that he was following his piano teacher James Kwast, who had moved to the Klindworth-Scharwenka Conservatory and then the Stern Conservatory, and that Mahler recommended him as an "outstanding musician" on the strength of his piano performances as well as his conducting. No word on whether he continued playing piano in later life. - Leonard Bernstein: taught himself piano at age 10, played piano at the New England Conservatory and the Boston Public School Orchestra, accompanist for the Harvard Glee Club, studied piano at the Curtis Institute of Music, played jazz piano at the Village Vanguard, noted as an adult as a pianist, surprised Aaron Copland by playing Copland's Piano Variations at his birthday party, "often conducted piano concertos from the keyboard". So, after looking long and hard, reading through the biographies of 18 different famous conductors, I was unable to find even one great conductor who didn't know how to play instruments. Most of them were in fact very talented instrumentalists; a few were world-famous as instrumentalists. Most of them dedicated many years of their lives to learning to play instruments. The only one I could find that didn't have a paid music career playing instruments, as well as conducting, was Seiji Ozawa, and that was because his piano career was cut short by a crippling hand injury. (And I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Ozawa played horn or something in his spare time, even if he didn't perform publicly.)

Keyframe 4y ago
Maybe I worded wrongly, or you've misread or probably both. Conductor knowing how to play instruments (plural and all of them in the orchestra), and well at that, is not happening. An instrument - yes, as often is the case with music, at least to a certain level. What's more important, which was the point, is to understand realities of playing each one in order to understand what, how, and where to take the orchestra. Not ever playing even a single one would probably render the effort impossible at the highest level.
- kragen 4y ago
  Apparently in every single case they played at least one instrument at a world-class level, and in at least one case they were said to play "most of the instruments that comprise an orchestra", though presumably not at a world-class level. Hanging out with musicians leads me to believe that probably nearly all these conductors could play most of the instruments in the orchestra at a basic level, because it's totally normal for musicians to play around on instruments they don't specialize in, and there's a lot of skill transfer. Evidently conductors who founded orchestras without having world-class skill in playing at least one instrument did not achieve the level of excellence of the ones in my list above, and the folks who select conductors to conduct existing orchestras evidently consistently select conductors with world-class skill in playing at least one instrument. Perhaps, as you seem to be saying, they are wrong to do so, and a basic level of skill in one along with understanding the realities of playing each one would be sufficient. Conceivably it's an outdated or simply incorrect prejudice, similar to how almost no women were selected as conductors or even orchestra instrumentalists. But that doesn't seem like the way to bet.
  - Keyframe 4y ago
    That does make me think now is it an actual pre-requisite to be a conductor at a high level or just the way things have been. We seem not have much/any counter examples?
    - kragen 4y ago