5 ms·

I'm pretty sure this would be called an Adjustable Rate Mortgage (ARM) in the US. You aren't stupid; ARMs are sold heavily during "good times" and to be frank,

by kodah 4y ago

I'm pretty sure this would be called an Adjustable Rate Mortgage (ARM) in the US. You aren't stupid; ARMs are sold heavily during "good times" and to be frank, to my knowledge, most of your country uses what we call ARMs without issue. Having lived through, and lost all my shit, in the last financial crisis as a young man I'd also like to say something more directly to you. You did not let your family down. You thought you were making a good financial decision to help secure their future. Nobody, no matter what they tell you, can say they can predict bubbles. More aptly put, your nations economics, and predictions thereof, do not rest on your shoulders. The governments of the world will have to step in. Pay attention to government run programs to protect you during a recession. If you do default or get foreclosed on keep all of your records. I fled real life and joined the military after defaulting on my debts. In my last year of service I challenged the total of my debt as reported by creditors and won because they couldn't prove custody or the amounts. There's a long wind between "oh shit, things look they can be bad" and "oh shit, I'm fucked". Don't jump on the latter outlook just yet, try to ride this out and look for opportunities that will help you safely navigate these times.

kypro 4y ago
Thanks. I can't tell you how much comments like this mean right now. It's nice knowing someone can relate. I'm sure you also had your fair share of people telling you how stupid you were for taking out an ARM. But yes, ARMs are basically the entire UK market. We don't have long-term fixes like in the US. The longest fix we have here is 10 years and they're quite rare. Overwhelmingly borrowers go with 2, 3 or 5 year fixes. I believe the US is a huge outlier in that the majority of your mortgages since the GFC have been 30 year fixes. Things are very bad right now, but I'm still exploring options. It's possible at this point that we might still get through this if we're extremely careful with money (as in beans and rice every day for the next two years) and rates don't go any higher. It also assumes I don't lose my job which is at risk because of the recession. I'd like to say it's 50/50, but realistically there's probably a 20-30% chance I'll be okay at this point which isn't ideal, but it's still a hand worth playing. I would bet against the government stepping in because here in the UK you have renters who hate homeowners, and boomers who typically own there homes outright and therefore tend to blame people struggling with mortgages because in their day rates were 10% (obviously this is never adjusted for affordability, but still). Either way there is close to zero political incentive to help millennials who brough homes in the last two years. Nor is there any precedent to helping home owners in my position. Our new PM is also a bit of a Thatcherite and may actually be trying to raise rates with her economic policies which I think is part of the recent the market is reacting as it is. Honestly I doubt there's really a way out if things go against me any more. I'll have to declare bankruptcy and take it from there I suppose. I'm trying to stay strong, but I don't deal with stuff like this well. I don't even know if I want to deal with it. There's no reward at the end, it's just more suffering.
- rdtwo 4y ago
  Can’t you just sell now before markets adjust or are you underwater already? The sooner you accept the loss and bail the more likely you are to come out in one piece.
  - kypro 4y ago
    It's something we're thinking about. It's difficult though because we're in the middle of redecorating so the house isn't really in a sellable state right now. Plus selling now out of fear that rates or house prices might continue to move against us and rebuying later would guarantee a loss that might not be necessary at this point. Generally selling your home every time you fear that rates and house prices might move against you isn't a good idea. I mean you could have argued the same thing earlier this year when rates started to move up, so where you set the limit is hard to know. That's just the risk of homeownership I suppose. Unless you're in a very fortunate financial position for the first few years you just need to hope the market doesn't move against you enough that you become a forced seller. I still think our best bet at this point is to just hope that this move in rates is temporary or that we'll just about manage through if they stay where they are right now. My plan at the moment is to see how things play out over the next couple of weeks. If rates continue to move higher over the next several days then, yes, I think we'll probably need to sell. But realistically it might already be too late. Given the panic right now realistically we may not be able to sell our house in this environment and in the state our house is currently in. Most lenders have withdrawn all mortgage deals because of what's happening in markets. The thing people are not talking about yet is that it's not just mortgage borrowers at risk here, it would be very hard for rates to go much higher without it bankrupting the UK economy. Government borrowing costs are going through the roof right now so realistically higher rates would present a systemic economic threat when public debt is this high. The government themselves simply couldn't afford rates going to say 10%. The only way out if rates go much higher is massive currency devaluation which would be good thing for borrowers. But that's just the rational part of my head thinking about this situation. The problem is this was caused by extremely naive fiscal policy that the markets are now punishing. Assuming the government is a rational actor isn't a bet I really want to take. Especially when the current tory leadership seems to be ideologically in favour of higher rates and lower taxes which simply can't work right now.
RickJWagner 4y ago
"The governments of the world will have to step in." No, they won't. It's irresponsible to think the government is going to bail you out of some predicament. It's not stupid or foolish to be caught in some financial trap, but it should not happen twice and it should not happen to those you care about in latter years. Financial literacy is a precious skill, and one that we should all work on constantly. I don't mean for that to seem harsh, but it's just wrong to expect government help all the time. Especially for a readership on Hacker News, we should be pitching financial literacy.
- stuaxo 4y ago
  The UK government has a history of propping up the housing market, so given that context it makes sense.

by kodah 4y ago

kypro 4y ago

Thanks. I can't tell you how much comments like this mean right now. It's nice knowing someone can relate. I'm sure you also had your fair share of people telling you how stupid you were for taking out an ARM. But yes, ARMs are basically the entire UK market. We don't have long-term fixes like in the US. The longest fix we have here is 10 years and they're quite rare. Overwhelmingly borrowers go with 2, 3 or 5 year fixes. I believe the US is a huge outlier in that the majority of your mortgages since the GFC have been 30 year fixes. Things are very bad right now, but I'm still exploring options. It's possible at this point that we might still get through this if we're extremely careful with money (as in beans and rice every day for the next two years) and rates don't go any higher. It also assumes I don't lose my job which is at risk because of the recession. I'd like to say it's 50/50, but realistically there's probably a 20-30% chance I'll be okay at this point which isn't ideal, but it's still a hand worth playing. I would bet against the government stepping in because here in the UK you have renters who hate homeowners, and boomers who typically own there homes outright and therefore tend to blame people struggling with mortgages because in their day rates were 10% (obviously this is never adjusted for affordability, but still). Either way there is close to zero political incentive to help millennials who brough homes in the last two years. Nor is there any precedent to helping home owners in my position. Our new PM is also a bit of a Thatcherite and may actually be trying to raise rates with her economic policies which I think is part of the recent the market is reacting as it is. Honestly I doubt there's really a way out if things go against me any more. I'll have to declare bankruptcy and take it from there I suppose. I'm trying to stay strong, but I don't deal with stuff like this well. I don't even know if I want to deal with it. There's no reward at the end, it's just more suffering.

rdtwo 4y ago
Can’t you just sell now before markets adjust or are you underwater already? The sooner you accept the loss and bail the more likely you are to come out in one piece.
- kypro 4y ago
  It's something we're thinking about. It's difficult though because we're in the middle of redecorating so the house isn't really in a sellable state right now. Plus selling now out of fear that rates or house prices might continue to move against us and rebuying later would guarantee a loss that might not be necessary at this point. Generally selling your home every time you fear that rates and house prices might move against you isn't a good idea. I mean you could have argued the same thing earlier this year when rates started to move up, so where you set the limit is hard to know. That's just the risk of homeownership I suppose. Unless you're in a very fortunate financial position for the first few years you just need to hope the market doesn't move against you enough that you become a forced seller. I still think our best bet at this point is to just hope that this move in rates is temporary or that we'll just about manage through if they stay where they are right now. My plan at the moment is to see how things play out over the next couple of weeks. If rates continue to move higher over the next several days then, yes, I think we'll probably need to sell. But realistically it might already be too late. Given the panic right now realistically we may not be able to sell our house in this environment and in the state our house is currently in. Most lenders have withdrawn all mortgage deals because of what's happening in markets. The thing people are not talking about yet is that it's not just mortgage borrowers at risk here, it would be very hard for rates to go much higher without it bankrupting the UK economy. Government borrowing costs are going through the roof right now so realistically higher rates would present a systemic economic threat when public debt is this high. The government themselves simply couldn't afford rates going to say 10%. The only way out if rates go much higher is massive currency devaluation which would be good thing for borrowers. But that's just the rational part of my head thinking about this situation. The problem is this was caused by extremely naive fiscal policy that the markets are now punishing. Assuming the government is a rational actor isn't a bet I really want to take. Especially when the current tory leadership seems to be ideologically in favour of higher rates and lower taxes which simply can't work right now.

RickJWagner 4y ago

"The governments of the world will have to step in." No, they won't. It's irresponsible to think the government is going to bail you out of some predicament. It's not stupid or foolish to be caught in some financial trap, but it should not happen twice and it should not happen to those you care about in latter years. Financial literacy is a precious skill, and one that we should all work on constantly. I don't mean for that to seem harsh, but it's just wrong to expect government help all the time. Especially for a readership on Hacker News, we should be pitching financial literacy.

stuaxo 4y ago
The UK government has a history of propping up the housing market, so given that context it makes sense.