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That seems another matter to me. Are the sanctions against Russia meant to change Russia's warmongering behavior, or are they meant to save the environment?

That seems another matter to me. Are the sanctions against Russia meant to change Russia's warmongering behavior, or are they meant to save the environment? At present these motivations seem to align, but if the political situation in Russia changes that may no longer be the case.

SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
> Are the sanctions against Russia meant to change Russia's warmongering behavior, or are they meant to save the environment? it is, as I said above, not an either-or. The environmental benefits (which might be a good step, but will not be in themselves enough to "save" anyone) are outside of the consideration, and not the matter at hand. I thought that was clearly phrased. Rather, removing Russia, or other petrostates ability to blackmail with energy supply, makes them less likely to warmonger. Russia's warmongering is very much supported with oil and gas leverage - i.e. threats of "don't interfere or you'll go cold". Like the other reply says - if bullies no longer have a hold over you, you'll get less bullying. It's a poor assumption that Russian leadership will be better or even different in nature any time soon, Putin or not. And it's good for European domestic politics as well, to be less concerned with appeasing other powers, especially dictators.
mrguyorama 4y ago
If nobody buys Russian gas even after sanctions are lifted, that's not because of sanctions against russia, but rather because nobody likes to do business with a bully that has shown they will happily attempt to screw you over with any power they hold over you, no matter how friendly they have been in the past.
btilly 4y ago
They are meant to change Russia's warmongering behavior. Given that Germany is now turning coal plants back on to cope, I can't even see that there is alignment with the environment even in the short term.
- SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
  In the short terms, Germans are rightly thinking "We'd rather get through the winter with local coal than pay Moscow" so no, this is not an environment benefit, yet. However it is a good trend in longer term - I don't think that there is desire for a long term "turn back to coal", it's just short-term expedience until a better alternative can be built up - after all, those coal plants exist already. Yes it's done under difficult conditions now as a consequence of not doing it under good conditions earlier.
happyopossum 4y ago
> Are the sanctions against Russia meant to change Russia's warmongering behavior, or are they meant to save the environment? They're not capable of doing anything to save the environment - in fact it's likely they're a net-negative. Russia is still selling that energy to someone - right now China and India - and it's unlikely the new buyers will be taking the same steps to burn the natural gas as cleanly or efficiently as western Europe would.

SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago

> Are the sanctions against Russia meant to change Russia's warmongering behavior, or are they meant to save the environment? it is, as I said above, not an either-or. The environmental benefits (which might be a good step, but will not be in themselves enough to "save" anyone) are outside of the consideration, and not the matter at hand. I thought that was clearly phrased. Rather, removing Russia, or other petrostates ability to blackmail with energy supply, makes them less likely to warmonger. Russia's warmongering is very much supported with oil and gas leverage - i.e. threats of "don't interfere or you'll go cold". Like the other reply says - if bullies no longer have a hold over you, you'll get less bullying. It's a poor assumption that Russian leadership will be better or even different in nature any time soon, Putin or not. And it's good for European domestic politics as well, to be less concerned with appeasing other powers, especially dictators.

mrguyorama 4y ago

If nobody buys Russian gas even after sanctions are lifted, that's not because of sanctions against russia, but rather because nobody likes to do business with a bully that has shown they will happily attempt to screw you over with any power they hold over you, no matter how friendly they have been in the past.

btilly 4y ago

They are meant to change Russia's warmongering behavior. Given that Germany is now turning coal plants back on to cope, I can't even see that there is alignment with the environment even in the short term.

SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
In the short terms, Germans are rightly thinking "We'd rather get through the winter with local coal than pay Moscow" so no, this is not an environment benefit, yet. However it is a good trend in longer term - I don't think that there is desire for a long term "turn back to coal", it's just short-term expedience until a better alternative can be built up - after all, those coal plants exist already. Yes it's done under difficult conditions now as a consequence of not doing it under good conditions earlier.

happyopossum 4y ago

> Are the sanctions against Russia meant to change Russia's warmongering behavior, or are they meant to save the environment? They're not capable of doing anything to save the environment - in fact it's likely they're a net-negative. Russia is still selling that energy to someone - right now China and India - and it's unlikely the new buyers will be taking the same steps to burn the natural gas as cleanly or efficiently as western Europe would.