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Yeah … employer handbooks are considered contracts. Every raise I’ve ever received has been accompanied by a “contract” hr puts in my folder.

ajross 4y ago
So frustrating to see this interpretation repeated here. No, that's not correct, because it if were correct these Amazon folks would have an open and shut case to keep their raises, and they don't. That's not the way compensation works. It might be the way one side or the other wants it to work in some situation, but it's not. You get paid what your employer offers. Your employer gets to keep the employees that want to stay. Period. Work done for contract is a real thing, it's just not applicable here. When you hire a plumber or a caterer or a security consultancy, you write up a contract ahead of time describing exactly the work to be done and the bill to be paid, and then get the courts to enforce that when needed. That is simply not the way that salaried employment works in the USA. It's not.
- lazyasciiart 4y ago
  You’re wrong. “Work for contract” is irrelevant to there being contracts used for salaried jobs. There was a contract involved, but it sounds like it was covering the period starting in October - so Amazon just has to cancel it and say “actually this is how much we will be paying you” and employees have the same option to reject the new contract terms as they do the existing contract: quitting before the new terms become active.
- pyuser583 4y ago
  You’re wrong and spreading confusion. Every job I’ve had has had a contract, and it’s usually “we pay what we want, we terminate you when we want, and you quit when you want.”
  - ajross 4y ago
    No, no, no. That's not a "contract", it's just a document. Go google "seven elements of a contract" (the basic definition in common law) and note that at-will employment simply lacks several (the big one being "certainty"). In particular a "contract" that says "you can do whatever" is clearly not a contract under common law. Now, sure, it's true that some elements of an employment agreement may constitute contracts and may have been enforced by courts. Back wages are a big one, obviously. Likewise promised benefits being denied, etc... But at-will compensation and termination just don't qualify. They don't. The Amazon workers can't sue for their mistake raises under contract law becuase those raises don't constitute contracts. Period.
    - benj111 4y ago
      Re Certainty. I'm pretty sure if you do work, as contractually agreed, the contract requires you be paid for that work. It's just a contract agreeing rates for work done, not a contract guaranteeing work will be done.
      - ajross 4y ago
        > I'm pretty sure if you do work, as contractually agreed, the contract requires you be paid for that work. Yes it does (and I even said so in the comment you replied to), but compensation plans, raises, offer letters, etc... are not payment for work done, and are not contracts for work for the reason stated. These Amazon folks aren't getting a penny, and it absolutely stuns me that people want to argue otherwise.
        pyuser583 4y ago
        They get paid for the previous work they have done (two weeks, half month, one month, depending on pay period). That’s theirs. But going forward, they don’t have any right to any level of pay above minimum wage. I’ve personally dealt with this. I had an employer run out of money and be acquired by a new company. The new company owes paychecks for last pay period, but wants to pay everyone lower salaries. Going forward the new company could pay whatever (above minimum wage). But they owned all the debts of the previous company including that last months wage. We only had at will hiring agreements, but that didnt matter.

ajross 4y ago

So frustrating to see this interpretation repeated here. No, that's not correct, because it if were correct these Amazon folks would have an open and shut case to keep their raises, and they don't. That's not the way compensation works. It might be the way one side or the other wants it to work in some situation, but it's not. You get paid what your employer offers. Your employer gets to keep the employees that want to stay. Period. Work done for contract is a real thing, it's just not applicable here. When you hire a plumber or a caterer or a security consultancy, you write up a contract ahead of time describing exactly the work to be done and the bill to be paid, and then get the courts to enforce that when needed. That is simply not the way that salaried employment works in the USA. It's not.

lazyasciiart 4y ago
You’re wrong. “Work for contract” is irrelevant to there being contracts used for salaried jobs. There was a contract involved, but it sounds like it was covering the period starting in October - so Amazon just has to cancel it and say “actually this is how much we will be paying you” and employees have the same option to reject the new contract terms as they do the existing contract: quitting before the new terms become active.
pyuser583 4y ago
You’re wrong and spreading confusion. Every job I’ve had has had a contract, and it’s usually “we pay what we want, we terminate you when we want, and you quit when you want.”
- ajross 4y ago
  No, no, no. That's not a "contract", it's just a document. Go google "seven elements of a contract" (the basic definition in common law) and note that at-will employment simply lacks several (the big one being "certainty"). In particular a "contract" that says "you can do whatever" is clearly not a contract under common law. Now, sure, it's true that some elements of an employment agreement may constitute contracts and may have been enforced by courts. Back wages are a big one, obviously. Likewise promised benefits being denied, etc... But at-will compensation and termination just don't qualify. They don't. The Amazon workers can't sue for their mistake raises under contract law becuase those raises don't constitute contracts. Period.
  - benj111 4y ago
    Re Certainty. I'm pretty sure if you do work, as contractually agreed, the contract requires you be paid for that work. It's just a contract agreeing rates for work done, not a contract guaranteeing work will be done.
    - ajross 4y ago
      > I'm pretty sure if you do work, as contractually agreed, the contract requires you be paid for that work. Yes it does (and I even said so in the comment you replied to), but compensation plans, raises, offer letters, etc... are not payment for work done, and are not contracts for work for the reason stated. These Amazon folks aren't getting a penny, and it absolutely stuns me that people want to argue otherwise.
      - pyuser583 4y ago
        They get paid for the previous work they have done (two weeks, half month, one month, depending on pay period). That’s theirs. But going forward, they don’t have any right to any level of pay above minimum wage. I’ve personally dealt with this. I had an employer run out of money and be acquired by a new company. The new company owes paychecks for last pay period, but wants to pay everyone lower salaries. Going forward the new company could pay whatever (above minimum wage). But they owned all the debts of the previous company including that last months wage. We only had at will hiring agreements, but that didnt matter.