4 ms·

I'm guessing that I'm not the only reader here old enough to remember 1999-2001 US vs Microsoft [1], and who celebrated when Judge Jackson colorfully told MS to

I'm guessing that I'm not the only reader here old enough to remember 1999-2001 US vs Microsoft [1], and who celebrated when Judge Jackson colorfully told MS to stop beating a dead horse [2], and who was sad at the successful appeal of the verdict against MS. We rooted for the small upstart fighting entrenched big tech, and later cheered with Netscape Navigator was open-sourced, starting the path to Firefox. I admit that I'm not using Firefox by default now (when I've used it, it worked fine), but it seems that many others here have real gripes with how Firefox works as a default browser, and are basically saying "Mozilla can blame themselves for being marginal". Can someone ELI5 what Mozilla did to deserve this derision? Also MDN is an awesome and invaluable resource [3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor.... [2] https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=19990217&slug=2944766 https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=19990217&slug... [3] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/ https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/

throwaquestion5 4y ago
>Can someone ELI5 what Mozilla did to deserve this derision? I would say its because Mozilla isn't the incorruptible champion of web browsing. Yes, they have done bad decisions, bad(and good) products have been axed that are unrelated to a browser, and they have being influenced by political issues because, well, people work at Mozilla and people get to be influenced by that. So bad impressions triumph over any campaign they have done, like the ones quoted from the article below. Browsers and the Quest for More Private Advertising - 2009 - Mozilla leads the Do-Not-Track (“DNT”) Working Group at W3C. This is a signal sent by the browser to websites indicating that the user does not wish to be tracked online. All major browsers implement DNT. The advertising industry fails to adopt DNT and the initiative ultimately fails. - 2015 - Firefox launches “Tracking Protection.” This was an important but small step. It is off by default and blocks ads that track. 2018 - Firefox launches Facebook Container based on several months of work to isolate first party cookies.96 This is another small step forward against tracking. - 2019 - Firefox launches with Enhanced Tracking Protection (“ETP”) based on learnings from earlier efforts alongside an “anti-tracking policy”.97 ETP is a success, and drives all major browsers except Chrome to implement similar features. - 2020 - Firefox blocks third-party fingerprinting resources98 and includes pro- tections against redirect tracking.99 Mozilla leads the formation of the Privacy Community Group at the W3C.100 - 2021 - Firefox takes on supercookies,101 introduces Total Cookie Protection,102 and trims HTTP Referrers to protect privacy.103 Mozilla leads the formation of the Privacy Advertising Technology Community Group at the W3C.104 - 2022 - Firefox launches Total Cookie Protection by default105 and adds manual protections against link decoration.106 Mozilla continues work on Privacy Pre- serving Advertising107 through both criticism of and collaboration with Google, Apple, Meta and others.
- an1sotropy 4y ago
  The things you enumerate seem to be on the “Mozilla good” side of things, to be simplistic. Can you say more about Mozilla bad?
Dalewyn 4y ago
>Can someone ELI5 what Mozilla did to deserve this derision? Mozilla told its core audience to go away.
- an1sotropy 4y ago
  I guess I totally missed this. Can you please explain in more detail?
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    Removal of customization and advanced features, introduction of unrelated and pointless real world politics, forays into markets not desired, the list goes on. Firefox's worst enemy is Mozilla.
    - an1sotropy 4y ago
      Thanks for the info. Can you suggest something I can read that summarizes Mozilla’s mistakes?
      - Dalewyn 4y ago
        I have nothing like that on hand, sadly. I was there to see it, so I haven't had a need for a chronicle of sorts.
        an1sotropy 4y ago
        So does this history of misdeeds actually undermine the points they make now in the Five Walled Gardens piece?
        Dalewyn 4y ago
        I admit I haven't so much as glanced through their rant/essay, not the least because I don't value anything Mozilla has to say anymore. Assuming Mozilla is talking about operating systems and how they mandate or encourage their own in-house offerings in lieu of third-party offerings, I'd say Mozilla is being a hypocrite. Firefox usurped IE6 at a time when all odds were against them, and Chrome today continues to overcome all such factors at play (only Android has Chrome as the default browser). Mozilla's very own history demonstrates that operating system lock-ins do not prevent an eventual change in the browser market leader. So yes, I would say their history of misguidance undermines their own arguments. Mozilla has an inferior product, which once was a superior product, and they are now groveling with pedantics because they can't once again ship a superior product (specifically, superior to Chrome) to reobtain market share. Whatever Mozilla wants to say or is saying here, they are the words of a loser who does not understand why he is losing, made even worse because the loser was once before a winner heralded as the saviour of worlds.
tommyage 4y ago
> Can someone ELI5 what Mozilla did to deserve this derision? Assumption: People have troubles with certain web applications like MS teams, goto-meeting,.. or youtube. Mozilla has to adapt to undocumented changes. There are an increasing amount of applications which do not support firefox (strange, because the web should be browser independent). People think Mozilla is responsible for this. Mozilla does not generate income with Firefox (besides dontations!). Why is it so important to have the biggest market share with a browser? I suppose there is data to be collected by the other players.

throwaquestion5 4y ago

>Can someone ELI5 what Mozilla did to deserve this derision? I would say its because Mozilla isn't the incorruptible champion of web browsing. Yes, they have done bad decisions, bad(and good) products have been axed that are unrelated to a browser, and they have being influenced by political issues because, well, people work at Mozilla and people get to be influenced by that. So bad impressions triumph over any campaign they have done, like the ones quoted from the article below. Browsers and the Quest for More Private Advertising - 2009 - Mozilla leads the Do-Not-Track (“DNT”) Working Group at W3C. This is a signal sent by the browser to websites indicating that the user does not wish to be tracked online. All major browsers implement DNT. The advertising industry fails to adopt DNT and the initiative ultimately fails. - 2015 - Firefox launches “Tracking Protection.” This was an important but small step. It is off by default and blocks ads that track. 2018 - Firefox launches Facebook Container based on several months of work to isolate first party cookies.96 This is another small step forward against tracking. - 2019 - Firefox launches with Enhanced Tracking Protection (“ETP”) based on learnings from earlier efforts alongside an “anti-tracking policy”.97 ETP is a success, and drives all major browsers except Chrome to implement similar features. - 2020 - Firefox blocks third-party fingerprinting resources98 and includes pro- tections against redirect tracking.99 Mozilla leads the formation of the Privacy Community Group at the W3C.100 - 2021 - Firefox takes on supercookies,101 introduces Total Cookie Protection,102 and trims HTTP Referrers to protect privacy.103 Mozilla leads the formation of the Privacy Advertising Technology Community Group at the W3C.104 - 2022 - Firefox launches Total Cookie Protection by default105 and adds manual protections against link decoration.106 Mozilla continues work on Privacy Pre- serving Advertising107 through both criticism of and collaboration with Google, Apple, Meta and others.

an1sotropy 4y ago
The things you enumerate seem to be on the “Mozilla good” side of things, to be simplistic. Can you say more about Mozilla bad?

Dalewyn 4y ago

>Can someone ELI5 what Mozilla did to deserve this derision? Mozilla told its core audience to go away.

an1sotropy 4y ago
I guess I totally missed this. Can you please explain in more detail?
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  Removal of customization and advanced features, introduction of unrelated and pointless real world politics, forays into markets not desired, the list goes on. Firefox's worst enemy is Mozilla.
  - an1sotropy 4y ago
    Thanks for the info. Can you suggest something I can read that summarizes Mozilla’s mistakes?
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      I have nothing like that on hand, sadly. I was there to see it, so I haven't had a need for a chronicle of sorts.
      - an1sotropy 4y ago
        So does this history of misdeeds actually undermine the points they make now in the Five Walled Gardens piece?
        Dalewyn 4y ago
        I admit I haven't so much as glanced through their rant/essay, not the least because I don't value anything Mozilla has to say anymore. Assuming Mozilla is talking about operating systems and how they mandate or encourage their own in-house offerings in lieu of third-party offerings, I'd say Mozilla is being a hypocrite. Firefox usurped IE6 at a time when all odds were against them, and Chrome today continues to overcome all such factors at play (only Android has Chrome as the default browser). Mozilla's very own history demonstrates that operating system lock-ins do not prevent an eventual change in the browser market leader. So yes, I would say their history of misguidance undermines their own arguments. Mozilla has an inferior product, which once was a superior product, and they are now groveling with pedantics because they can't once again ship a superior product (specifically, superior to Chrome) to reobtain market share. Whatever Mozilla wants to say or is saying here, they are the words of a loser who does not understand why he is losing, made even worse because the loser was once before a winner heralded as the saviour of worlds.

tommyage 4y ago

> Can someone ELI5 what Mozilla did to deserve this derision? Assumption: People have troubles with certain web applications like MS teams, goto-meeting,.. or youtube. Mozilla has to adapt to undocumented changes. There are an increasing amount of applications which do not support firefox (strange, because the web should be browser independent). People think Mozilla is responsible for this. Mozilla does not generate income with Firefox (besides dontations!). Why is it so important to have the biggest market share with a browser? I suppose there is data to be collected by the other players.