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Mozilla has a very web-centric view of the internet for obvious reasons. The survey they do here about people's reluctance to install browsers themselves is use

Mozilla has a very web-centric view of the internet for obvious reasons. The survey they do here about people's reluctance to install browsers themselves is useful in that context. But the web is not the internet. And every problem that Mozilla brings up in this report stems from them, and other browser developing corporations, treating web pages as applications instead of as documents.

tenebrisalietum 4y ago
The motivation to make the web an application platform is because the web is the only thing that could possibly displace Microsoft's stranglehold on non-server PC operating systems, and is the only workable alternative to apps on iOS.
- notriddle 4y ago
  That's half the reason. The other half of the reason is that Web applications are way easier to deploy, even if 100% of your users are on Windows, because the second-order-effect of being locked-down is less gatekeeping and less scare screens. If a web app is able to see stuff that it hasn't been explicitly granted access to, that's considered the Browser's fault for allowing it instead of it being the User's fault for installing an untrusted app.
robgibbons 4y ago
Hypermedia in general, and specifically the World Wide Web, was never intended to be limited to displaying documents. What you're describing is essentially just Hypertext, but that's only one narrow aspect of hypermedia and the Web. Hypercard, NLS, and other systems that predated and informed the WWW were all envisioned to do so much more than display links and text, and it's a very myopic view in my opinion to suggest otherwise. I recommend anyone who shares this perspective look into the spiritual predecessors of the Web to better understand where we've been and where things are going.
- ok_dad 4y ago
  Who cares about what was "intended" anyways? That ship has sailed! When a new technology is introduced, the intention is of no consequence; no one cares and they'll use it however they choose. The web is whatever we make it, and all we can do is try and direct it towards what we want it to be.
gregmac 4y ago
> every problem that Mozilla brings up in this report stems from them, and other browser developing corporations, treating web pages as applications instead of as documents. What do you mean by this? The problems they bring up essentially boil down to increasing user access to privacy, security, and new features. Locking people into default browsers put us back into the stagnant, horrible IE6 era. The only thing I can figure out is you're saying if client-side scripting didn't exist, some of these would be less pressing. Which is true, but it does exist, so the choice is abolish/avoid it (good luck getting mass user adoption!), or deal with it.
yamtaddle 4y ago
> Mozilla has a very web-centric view of the internet for obvious reasons. Which attitude I happen to find immensely frustrating because I think becoming a more all-inclusive Internet client, and especially combining services in interesting ways, would have been one viable path to maintaining relevance, differentiating themselves, and maintaining user-enthusiasm and evangelism, if they'd started 10-12 years ago.
TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
> But the web is not the internet. The "web" is a joke. Other people here are taking issue with this comment, but there's a distinct truth to it. You can argue semantics, but web "browsers" were designed around navigating HTML. Now they are IDE's for runtime-compiled applications using HTML primitives, positioned by CSS, in place of an actual, useful, concrete widget system, like you get in Visual Basic. If this had been the development target for "browsers" 25 years ago, I wonder how much better we could have evolved this system than the morass of JS we have now, and all the problems that go with it.
acomjean 4y ago
I get that, but web applications are getting pretty good. They are also cross platform which is great for us Linux users.

tenebrisalietum 4y ago

The motivation to make the web an application platform is because the web is the only thing that could possibly displace Microsoft's stranglehold on non-server PC operating systems, and is the only workable alternative to apps on iOS.

notriddle 4y ago
That's half the reason. The other half of the reason is that Web applications are way easier to deploy, even if 100% of your users are on Windows, because the second-order-effect of being locked-down is less gatekeeping and less scare screens. If a web app is able to see stuff that it hasn't been explicitly granted access to, that's considered the Browser's fault for allowing it instead of it being the User's fault for installing an untrusted app.

robgibbons 4y ago

Hypermedia in general, and specifically the World Wide Web, was never intended to be limited to displaying documents. What you're describing is essentially just Hypertext, but that's only one narrow aspect of hypermedia and the Web. Hypercard, NLS, and other systems that predated and informed the WWW were all envisioned to do so much more than display links and text, and it's a very myopic view in my opinion to suggest otherwise. I recommend anyone who shares this perspective look into the spiritual predecessors of the Web to better understand where we've been and where things are going.

ok_dad 4y ago
Who cares about what was "intended" anyways? That ship has sailed! When a new technology is introduced, the intention is of no consequence; no one cares and they'll use it however they choose. The web is whatever we make it, and all we can do is try and direct it towards what we want it to be.

gregmac 4y ago

> every problem that Mozilla brings up in this report stems from them, and other browser developing corporations, treating web pages as applications instead of as documents. What do you mean by this? The problems they bring up essentially boil down to increasing user access to privacy, security, and new features. Locking people into default browsers put us back into the stagnant, horrible IE6 era. The only thing I can figure out is you're saying if client-side scripting didn't exist, some of these would be less pressing. Which is true, but it does exist, so the choice is abolish/avoid it (good luck getting mass user adoption!), or deal with it.

yamtaddle 4y ago

> Mozilla has a very web-centric view of the internet for obvious reasons. Which attitude I happen to find immensely frustrating because I think becoming a more all-inclusive Internet client, and especially combining services in interesting ways, would have been one viable path to maintaining relevance, differentiating themselves, and maintaining user-enthusiasm and evangelism, if they'd started 10-12 years ago.

TheRealDunkirk 4y ago

> But the web is not the internet. The "web" is a joke. Other people here are taking issue with this comment, but there's a distinct truth to it. You can argue semantics, but web "browsers" were designed around navigating HTML. Now they are IDE's for runtime-compiled applications using HTML primitives, positioned by CSS, in place of an actual, useful, concrete widget system, like you get in Visual Basic. If this had been the development target for "browsers" 25 years ago, I wonder how much better we could have evolved this system than the morass of JS we have now, and all the problems that go with it.

acomjean 4y ago

I get that, but web applications are getting pretty good. They are also cross platform which is great for us Linux users.