5 ms·

A question: has anyone here actually read this book? While I'm frustrated that books like Maus are being caught up in these book bans, I'm more frustrated that

A question: has anyone here actually read this book? While I'm frustrated that books like Maus are being caught up in these book bans, I'm more frustrated that books like "Gender Queer" are being treated as important books that should be in school libraries and accessible to fourteen year olds. But most of all, I'm angry that whenever this discussion happens, people try to gaslight me into believing this is just bigotry, or ideological boogeyman that don't exist, or partisan politics. It would be far more tolerable for someone to say, "Yes, books that teach and advocate queer theory should be available for children at X age." That, I can tolerate. Being told this is all a figment of my imagination, I cannot. Where this leads? Because of the rampant intellectual dishonesty and outright lies about what's happening, it's very difficult for me to believe that "Girls Who Code" is JUST a book that aims to introduce women to software development.

vore 4y ago
Why don't you take a look for yourself before getting mad at your strawman? https://girlswhocode.com/assets/downloads/craft-prod/downloads/Girls-Who-Code-At-Home-The-Friendship-Code-Chapter-1.pdf https://girlswhocode.com/assets/downloads/craft-prod/downloa...
Woeps 4y ago
> "are being treated as important books that should be in school libraries and accessible to fourteen year olds." Why would these books not be important? Because reading the reviews it's seems that the book is (and I quote) "great resource for those who identify as nonbinary or asexual" So yeah... this book not being important and > "Girls Who Code" is JUST a book that aims to introduce women to software development." IS just a figment of your imagination.
mturmon 4y ago
About books on gender roles: People are going through puberty at 14, and this is when questions about gender come up in a very pressing way. If you're trans, you might be disturbed by these changes and want some background information. So it's actually correct for books about gender to be in the school library. I can't endorse a particular book ("Gender Queer"), of course -- is that a real example? Usually the school librarian will be another check point on who has access to these books, if the library is open to a wider age group than, say, middle schoolers. This kind of "just asking questions" -- singling out this particular category of book -- does carry special weight in the light of things like the coordinated campaign targeting Boston Children's Hospital. Why the extra scrutiny?
- hulitu 4y ago
  - mturmon 4y ago
    This is an unhelpful comment. Gender != sexuality. Also, from https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html: > Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies, generic tangents, and internet tropes.
msackler1 4y ago
I don’t think this group codes, they make music videos and fundraise.
littlestymaar 4y ago
> it's very difficult for me to believe that "Girls Who Code" is JUST a book that aims to introduce women to software development. But why is that even your business? Books shouldn't be banned just because they convey a narrative you don't like. I can accept that there atr reasons to ban books in some context (like there's no place for porn stuff in a school library) but it must be some decently valid reason, not “I don't like the content of this book because it goes against my beliefs ” because this is the definition of censorship (and that's how maus got banned too)
spywaregorilla 4y ago
> But most of all, I'm angry that whenever this discussion happens, people try to gaslight me into believing this is just bigotry, or ideological boogeyman that don't exist, or partisan politics. > Being told this is all a figment of my imagination, I cannot. Perhaps then you can empathize with a queer teen who is angry that people try to gaslight them into believing their feelings are just... whatever it is you think they are? It sounds like your frustration with being told your reasons for opinions are a figment of your imagination are very similar to those being told by people like you that their gender identity is a figment of theirs.
jimbob45 4y ago
The weirdest bit is that leftists themselves held modern conservative stances on homosexual rejection, transsexual mental illness, and election security as recently as Bill Clinton. You can readily find unambiguous quotes for each online. Obama himself stated on the 2008 campaign trail that gay marriage should not be legal. Now, suddenly, these stances aren't legitimate? I do certainly agree that this seems like industrial gaslighting.
- toomanyrichies 4y ago
  > Obama himself stated on the 2008 campaign trail... In your opinion, how much time is sufficient before we can safely use the phrase "Their opinions have evolved for the better since then"? Please specify a number.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
jmull 4y ago
> ...it's very difficult for me to believe that "Girls Who Code" is JUST a book that aims to introduce women to software development You're sure it deserved to be banned... because it got banned? Not sure that makes sense.
dwater 4y ago
Well, if you are concerned that this series of books might be inappropriate for the target audience you could perhaps read one? The first book is 144 pages that are 8x5.5", you could probably finish it in an afternoon and then you would know for yourself if is as bad as you have decided it must be. You can start by reading an excerpt here: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/537720/the-friendship-code-1-by-stacia-deutsch/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/537720/the-friendsh...
- bjt2n3904 4y ago
  Pardon me, I haven't decided anything. My question was explicitly if there is anyone here who has -- and acknowledging that any prejudice I have against it is strictly because of how I'm treated by people who aren't arguing in good faith. Am I not allowed to be human? EDIT: FWIW, many of the replies here are already par for the course. I'm fairly open to a discussion about this book in particular -- but I know several other parents who are not. They're burnt out from this nonsense. How do you expect them to react, when the first response to their concerns is "Bigot! Strawman! Not your business! Figment of your imagination!"
  - vore 4y ago
    How do you expect commenters to react to your post when you haven't read the book and start soapboxing with your preconceived notions of the book without even engaging with what is actually in the book? It's hard to take you in good faith when 90% of your post is starting a fight with people.
    - bjt2n3904 4y ago
      Have you read the book?
      - vore 4y ago
        Yes, I literally posted an excerpt of it in response to your first comment!
Reason077 4y ago
> ”I'm more frustrated that books like "Gender Queer" are being treated as important books that should be in school libraries and accessible to fourteen year olds.” Why shouldn’t such books be accessible to fourteen year olds? Are you afraid that reading the wrong books will somehow turn your kids gay or trans?
welshwelsh 4y ago
Yes, no shit books that teach and advocate queer theory should be available for teenagers. The reason nobody is saying that is that it doesn't have to be said. This isn't Afghanistan, this is a free country that values education and freedom of information. If someone of any age wants to read a book, that is their right regardless of the topic. Nobody is being forced to read it. It boggles my mind that there are Americans who think otherwise. What possible reason could there be for banning a book from a school library? Especially an educational book that talks about something that's been studied in academia for 30 years. "Girls Who Code" is about introducing girls to coding. What else would it be about? If you do some searching it's not hard to find a pdf if you want to check. But it's banned for the same reason Queer Theory is banned: it empowers people to defy traditional gender roles. Traditionally, women aren't supposed to have high powered tech careers that pay six figures. Traditionally, women are expected to have children, to be financially dependent on men and to put family before career. Learning to code isn't part of the script. Women are already more educated than men, they vote more than men and if they get into computer science they might start earning more than men too.
- NotSammyHagar 4y ago
  The person you are replying to seemed clearly to be against exposing children to books like you are supporting. They were for book banning.

vore 4y ago

Why don't you take a look for yourself before getting mad at your strawman? https://girlswhocode.com/assets/downloads/craft-prod/downloads/Girls-Who-Code-At-Home-The-Friendship-Code-Chapter-1.pdf https://girlswhocode.com/assets/downloads/craft-prod/downloa...

Woeps 4y ago

> "are being treated as important books that should be in school libraries and accessible to fourteen year olds." Why would these books not be important? Because reading the reviews it's seems that the book is (and I quote) "great resource for those who identify as nonbinary or asexual" So yeah... this book not being important and > "Girls Who Code" is JUST a book that aims to introduce women to software development." IS just a figment of your imagination.

mturmon 4y ago

About books on gender roles: People are going through puberty at 14, and this is when questions about gender come up in a very pressing way. If you're trans, you might be disturbed by these changes and want some background information. So it's actually correct for books about gender to be in the school library. I can't endorse a particular book ("Gender Queer"), of course -- is that a real example? Usually the school librarian will be another check point on who has access to these books, if the library is open to a wider age group than, say, middle schoolers. This kind of "just asking questions" -- singling out this particular category of book -- does carry special weight in the light of things like the coordinated campaign targeting Boston Children's Hospital. Why the extra scrutiny?

hulitu 4y ago
- mturmon 4y ago
  This is an unhelpful comment. Gender != sexuality. Also, from https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html: > Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies, generic tangents, and internet tropes.

msackler1 4y ago

I don’t think this group codes, they make music videos and fundraise.

littlestymaar 4y ago

> it's very difficult for me to believe that "Girls Who Code" is JUST a book that aims to introduce women to software development. But why is that even your business? Books shouldn't be banned just because they convey a narrative you don't like. I can accept that there atr reasons to ban books in some context (like there's no place for porn stuff in a school library) but it must be some decently valid reason, not “I don't like the content of this book because it goes against my beliefs ” because this is the definition of censorship (and that's how maus got banned too)

spywaregorilla 4y ago

> But most of all, I'm angry that whenever this discussion happens, people try to gaslight me into believing this is just bigotry, or ideological boogeyman that don't exist, or partisan politics. > Being told this is all a figment of my imagination, I cannot. Perhaps then you can empathize with a queer teen who is angry that people try to gaslight them into believing their feelings are just... whatever it is you think they are? It sounds like your frustration with being told your reasons for opinions are a figment of your imagination are very similar to those being told by people like you that their gender identity is a figment of theirs.

jimbob45 4y ago

The weirdest bit is that leftists themselves held modern conservative stances on homosexual rejection, transsexual mental illness, and election security as recently as Bill Clinton. You can readily find unambiguous quotes for each online. Obama himself stated on the 2008 campaign trail that gay marriage should not be legal. Now, suddenly, these stances aren't legitimate? I do certainly agree that this seems like industrial gaslighting.

toomanyrichies 4y ago
> Obama himself stated on the 2008 campaign trail... In your opinion, how much time is sufficient before we can safely use the phrase "Their opinions have evolved for the better since then"? Please specify a number.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

jmull 4y ago

> ...it's very difficult for me to believe that "Girls Who Code" is JUST a book that aims to introduce women to software development You're sure it deserved to be banned... because it got banned? Not sure that makes sense.

dwater 4y ago

Well, if you are concerned that this series of books might be inappropriate for the target audience you could perhaps read one? The first book is 144 pages that are 8x5.5", you could probably finish it in an afternoon and then you would know for yourself if is as bad as you have decided it must be. You can start by reading an excerpt here: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/537720/the-friendship-code-1-by-stacia-deutsch/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/537720/the-friendsh...

bjt2n3904 4y ago
Pardon me, I haven't decided anything. My question was explicitly if there is anyone here who has -- and acknowledging that any prejudice I have against it is strictly because of how I'm treated by people who aren't arguing in good faith. Am I not allowed to be human? EDIT: FWIW, many of the replies here are already par for the course. I'm fairly open to a discussion about this book in particular -- but I know several other parents who are not. They're burnt out from this nonsense. How do you expect them to react, when the first response to their concerns is "Bigot! Strawman! Not your business! Figment of your imagination!"
- vore 4y ago
  How do you expect commenters to react to your post when you haven't read the book and start soapboxing with your preconceived notions of the book without even engaging with what is actually in the book? It's hard to take you in good faith when 90% of your post is starting a fight with people.
  - bjt2n3904 4y ago
    Have you read the book?
    - vore 4y ago
      Yes, I literally posted an excerpt of it in response to your first comment!

Reason077 4y ago

> ”I'm more frustrated that books like "Gender Queer" are being treated as important books that should be in school libraries and accessible to fourteen year olds.” Why shouldn’t such books be accessible to fourteen year olds? Are you afraid that reading the wrong books will somehow turn your kids gay or trans?

welshwelsh 4y ago

Yes, no shit books that teach and advocate queer theory should be available for teenagers. The reason nobody is saying that is that it doesn't have to be said. This isn't Afghanistan, this is a free country that values education and freedom of information. If someone of any age wants to read a book, that is their right regardless of the topic. Nobody is being forced to read it. It boggles my mind that there are Americans who think otherwise. What possible reason could there be for banning a book from a school library? Especially an educational book that talks about something that's been studied in academia for 30 years. "Girls Who Code" is about introducing girls to coding. What else would it be about? If you do some searching it's not hard to find a pdf if you want to check. But it's banned for the same reason Queer Theory is banned: it empowers people to defy traditional gender roles. Traditionally, women aren't supposed to have high powered tech careers that pay six figures. Traditionally, women are expected to have children, to be financially dependent on men and to put family before career. Learning to code isn't part of the script. Women are already more educated than men, they vote more than men and if they get into computer science they might start earning more than men too.

NotSammyHagar 4y ago
The person you are replying to seemed clearly to be against exposing children to books like you are supporting. They were for book banning.