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This is nonsense, possibly triggered by a misunderstanding of what the word "contract" denotes. An at-will employee and their employer contract that for each h

This is nonsense, possibly triggered by a misunderstanding of what the word "contract" denotes. An at-will employee and their employer contract that for each hour of work (or each ~week salaried) performed by employee on instructions from employer, employer will pay to employee $X. Just because such a contract doesn't contain any term indicating the length of time an employee will work doesn't make it less of a contract. As further evidence, if at-will employment were not a contractual agreement there'd be no recourse for the employee to recover unpaid wages. And yet unpaid wages are recoverable.

ajross 4y ago
That's getting needless sticky about definitions, and harming understanding of the point, potentially leading people to think that these Amazon workers are going to get their raises, which they clearly won't. Let me be more concrete: am employer presenting you with a plan for future compensation[1] in an existing employment relationship does not constitute a contract. They can pay you what they want to pay you. [1] Your back wages argument doesn't apply here. These people never got paid at all.
- puffoflogic 4y ago
  None of which has anything to do with at-will employment. Since you do appear to have a good understanding of the situation, this leads me to the only possible conclusion that you were deliberately spreading disinformation about at will employment for some purpose.
pyuser583 4y ago
Yeah … employer handbooks are considered contracts. Every raise I’ve ever received has been accompanied by a “contract” hr puts in my folder.
- ajross 4y ago
  So frustrating to see this interpretation repeated here. No, that's not correct, because it if were correct these Amazon folks would have an open and shut case to keep their raises, and they don't. That's not the way compensation works. It might be the way one side or the other wants it to work in some situation, but it's not. You get paid what your employer offers. Your employer gets to keep the employees that want to stay. Period. Work done for contract is a real thing, it's just not applicable here. When you hire a plumber or a caterer or a security consultancy, you write up a contract ahead of time describing exactly the work to be done and the bill to be paid, and then get the courts to enforce that when needed. That is simply not the way that salaried employment works in the USA. It's not.
  - lazyasciiart 4y ago
    You’re wrong. “Work for contract” is irrelevant to there being contracts used for salaried jobs. There was a contract involved, but it sounds like it was covering the period starting in October - so Amazon just has to cancel it and say “actually this is how much we will be paying you” and employees have the same option to reject the new contract terms as they do the existing contract: quitting before the new terms become active.
  - pyuser583 4y ago
    You’re wrong and spreading confusion. Every job I’ve had has had a contract, and it’s usually “we pay what we want, we terminate you when we want, and you quit when you want.”
    - ajross 4y ago
      No, no, no. That's not a "contract", it's just a document. Go google "seven elements of a contract" (the basic definition in common law) and note that at-will employment simply lacks several (the big one being "certainty"). In particular a "contract" that says "you can do whatever" is clearly not a contract under common law. Now, sure, it's true that some elements of an employment agreement may constitute contracts and may have been enforced by courts. Back wages are a big one, obviously. Likewise promised benefits being denied, etc... But at-will compensation and termination just don't qualify. They don't. The Amazon workers can't sue for their mistake raises under contract law becuase those raises don't constitute contracts. Period.
      - benj111 4y ago
        Re Certainty. I'm pretty sure if you do work, as contractually agreed, the contract requires you be paid for that work. It's just a contract agreeing rates for work done, not a contract guaranteeing work will be done.
        ajross 4y ago
        > I'm pretty sure if you do work, as contractually agreed, the contract requires you be paid for that work. Yes it does (and I even said so in the comment you replied to), but compensation plans, raises, offer letters, etc... are not payment for work done, and are not contracts for work for the reason stated. These Amazon folks aren't getting a penny, and it absolutely stuns me that people want to argue otherwise.

ajross 4y ago

That's getting needless sticky about definitions, and harming understanding of the point, potentially leading people to think that these Amazon workers are going to get their raises, which they clearly won't. Let me be more concrete: am employer presenting you with a plan for future compensation[1] in an existing employment relationship does not constitute a contract. They can pay you what they want to pay you. [1] Your back wages argument doesn't apply here. These people never got paid at all.

puffoflogic 4y ago
None of which has anything to do with at-will employment. Since you do appear to have a good understanding of the situation, this leads me to the only possible conclusion that you were deliberately spreading disinformation about at will employment for some purpose.

pyuser583 4y ago

Yeah … employer handbooks are considered contracts. Every raise I’ve ever received has been accompanied by a “contract” hr puts in my folder.

ajross 4y ago
So frustrating to see this interpretation repeated here. No, that's not correct, because it if were correct these Amazon folks would have an open and shut case to keep their raises, and they don't. That's not the way compensation works. It might be the way one side or the other wants it to work in some situation, but it's not. You get paid what your employer offers. Your employer gets to keep the employees that want to stay. Period. Work done for contract is a real thing, it's just not applicable here. When you hire a plumber or a caterer or a security consultancy, you write up a contract ahead of time describing exactly the work to be done and the bill to be paid, and then get the courts to enforce that when needed. That is simply not the way that salaried employment works in the USA. It's not.
- lazyasciiart 4y ago
  You’re wrong. “Work for contract” is irrelevant to there being contracts used for salaried jobs. There was a contract involved, but it sounds like it was covering the period starting in October - so Amazon just has to cancel it and say “actually this is how much we will be paying you” and employees have the same option to reject the new contract terms as they do the existing contract: quitting before the new terms become active.
- pyuser583 4y ago
  You’re wrong and spreading confusion. Every job I’ve had has had a contract, and it’s usually “we pay what we want, we terminate you when we want, and you quit when you want.”
  - ajross 4y ago
    No, no, no. That's not a "contract", it's just a document. Go google "seven elements of a contract" (the basic definition in common law) and note that at-will employment simply lacks several (the big one being "certainty"). In particular a "contract" that says "you can do whatever" is clearly not a contract under common law. Now, sure, it's true that some elements of an employment agreement may constitute contracts and may have been enforced by courts. Back wages are a big one, obviously. Likewise promised benefits being denied, etc... But at-will compensation and termination just don't qualify. They don't. The Amazon workers can't sue for their mistake raises under contract law becuase those raises don't constitute contracts. Period.
    - benj111 4y ago
      Re Certainty. I'm pretty sure if you do work, as contractually agreed, the contract requires you be paid for that work. It's just a contract agreeing rates for work done, not a contract guaranteeing work will be done.
      - ajross 4y ago
        > I'm pretty sure if you do work, as contractually agreed, the contract requires you be paid for that work. Yes it does (and I even said so in the comment you replied to), but compensation plans, raises, offer letters, etc... are not payment for work done, and are not contracts for work for the reason stated. These Amazon folks aren't getting a penny, and it absolutely stuns me that people want to argue otherwise.